MOTHER FUCKER GONNA DIE!!!!!!

[Bassmama]

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050316/thumb.ny11303161049.laci_peterson_ny113.jpg ("] Latest Developments[/url][url="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050316/480/ny11303161049) AP Photo Peterson Judge Sentences Him to Death (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/fc/US/laci_peterson_case/latest_developments/*http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20050316/ap_on_re_us/laci_peterson_17)

[Evilpoptart]

And this makes you happy no doubt....

I don't mean to come off like an asshole, but I cannot stress how strongly I am against the death penatly.

Just give me a minute, and I'll make a shrine so you can be an official deity.....I mean, who are we to judge? Whats makes you omnipotent and able to decide the fate of another......even if he is a low life scumbag.

My mom always said, two wrongs don't make a right. And myself, I have learned that lesson all too well in the last week or so.

Besides, if he dies, its the easy way out. I'd much rather see him anally raped for the next 50 years.

[Marsbert]

YES!!! BURN IN HELL ASSHOLE!!!

[Diva]

It's not something to celebrate. I believe in capital punishment, but have been rethinking that issue. The one thing that I understand is that it is murder. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. You take a person's life, you pay with your own. Then again, the suffering of being in jail for life is a punishment.

I do not celebrate murder. The first time I saw McVeigh's death certificate I was appalled at the Reason for Death. It said "Government sanctioned murder". But they were right. We are saying that it is okay to murder this person for the crimes that they have done.

It's not a happy time. It's not a high five moment. It's a time to reflect on the deaths of two innocent people. It's a time to either feel satisfied with the punishment or wish for something else.

[Evilpoptart]

Thank You

[whitecrow]

I don't want this to turn into a Capital Punishment pro/anti thread. We can have that elsewhere, but I'm with you, EPT.

I don't know anything about this case or what happened, so I will obstain.

[Mr. Bojangles]

You know, homicide is one of the worst crimes a person can commit. Not only does it cause irrevocable harm to the victim, who is of course dead, but to their family and friends as well. If we're not gonna do something to these people that is permanent and cost-effective, such as terminating their existence, then what should we do? Give 'em a life sentence, let 'em enjoy living on the gov't tit for the rest of their friggin span? Fuck that buddy. No way do I want to share breath with some lowlife that thought the best way to rectify his problems is to kill another person. End of rant.

[Bassmama]

Thank you, Bo- I'm with you.

YES it makes me happy- GOOD has won over EVIL!
That lowlife fuck took a 9 month pregnant woman- pregnant with HIS CHILD- and murdered them BOTH. Why? Because they got in his way of diddling with his girlfriend! Then he took THEIR bodies & dumped them into the sea- ON CHRISTMAS EVE!!!! Is it divine retribution that his cell on death row is overlooking where he dumped Laci & Conner? I think so.

Convicts get 3 squares a day, full medical, full dental, they don't have to do a hell of a lot, & they have 'babysitters' taking care of them 24/7. I don't know about the rest of you, but I've never done anything wrong, much less murdered anyone, and I don't have those perks. And the thing that gets me is that MY MONEY IS PAYING FOR IT ALL!!!! SO IS YOURS!!!!!

Scott Peterson will most likely be kept apart from general population to keep him safe. I'll bet that he'll be able to watch TV, go to the library, & any other perks the prison offers. What will Laci & Conner have?

While I think that the death penalty IS NOT always the answer, in THIS case, I feel it is MORE than appropriate.

Just my honest opinion. Don't care who doesn't agree with it.

[kittyroze]

I actually still think that counseling, education and psychological evaluation is better than jail time and punishment. Emotionally my first reaction is "fuck you you fucking asshole you deserve hell" and then I start thinking about how really, I'd rather have the whole system completely overhauled. I'm not saying that predators/murderers should be released out into society or anything, but I would like it if their behavior was studied, if they really did have major major counseling and therapy and perhaps medication if necessary, rather than just be killed or locked away somewhere and forgotten.

Yeah, I know, ridiculously expensive, but I can dream.

[Bassmama]

Police Seek Girl's Body After Confession
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050319/ap_on_re_us/missing_girl

How about this piece of shit? Keep him alive, too? What if this beautiful child was YOUR baby girl? Baby boppers NEVER get rehabilitated- proven fact. Look at the slideshow with this story. He ENTERED THE HOUSE AT NIGHT, kidnapped her, took her out & raped her, then murdered her. NINE FUCKING YEARS OLD!!!

I guarantee- if a pervert EVER harms either of my granddaughters, you WILL be visiting me in prison- because that WILL be the last child hurt by that particular piece of shit.

Capitol punishment? Fucker deserves to be tortured JUST LIKE he tortured this sweet baby.

[entipy]

You know, I think criminals are given way too many rights, as a general rule. Personally, I think if you commit a heinous crime such as rape or murder or both (especially of children), you should forfeit your rights as not only a citizen but a human being.

I abide by the laws of our nation (mostly :P), but I tell you something. If a man (or woman) were to rape or molest my daughter, it should be my basic human right to exact vengeance on that person, period. I know it's not, but I think it should be. Granted, that type of thing wouldn't work well in a society organized as ours is, and I'm not so naive to think it could. However, I still feel it is my basic human right.

That aside, I believe that since our basic human right to exact vengeance doesn't exist (as is necessary per our society, I recognize), the punishment should certainly fit the crime. I am not against capital punishment on any moral principle. However, I've had people tell me before that it's far less cost-effective for taxpayers than a life sentence in prison. (I have not researched this, so any of you who have or feel like you want to, please feel free and share.) So, I say YES to the death penalty if they cut through all the bureaucracy bullshit, take them out back and shoot them. If it's going to cost us more money to carry out a death sentence (i.e. lawyers, appeals, time spent in jail ANYWAY, etc.), then do away with it and find punishments which more appropriately fit the crime.

Here's one example. That woman who drowned her six children in Texas should have a punishment kinda like this. She should be drowned almost to the point of death six times daily for the rest of her life (in prison). THAT is appropriate punishment for someone who methodically drowns her own six offspring. She should feel the terror they felt in their last moments of life.

That is a fitting punishment.

Now, I shall step down from my soapbox. :)

[Amaurote]

Hmmm, I can never make my mind up about this case. I'm not bothered by the punishment, it's state law, if he's guilty he knew what he was risking; what is worrying is the continued circumstantiality of the case against him. He probably did it, but then again, it's quite probable that things happen contrary to the law of probability.

[Unforgiven]

Capitol punishment? Fucker deserves to be tortured JUST LIKE he tortured this sweet baby.

The 14th century called. They want their sense of right and wrong back, and if it's not too much trouble, their sense of justice.

[Bassmama]

The 14th century called. They want their sense of right and wrong back, and if it's not too much trouble, their sense of justice.

Why bother to even arrest them? Just let them go around kidnapping, raping, torturing... whatever they want. Then THEIR rights won't be 'violated'. Never mind the rights of the victims- after all, only the murderers, baby boppers, granny murderers & the like are allowed to have 'rights'.

Where's THIS little girl's 'rights' and 'justice'?

[JakeD]

The 14th century called. They want their sense of right and wrong back, and if it's not too much trouble, their sense of justice.

You and I have disagreed on the concept of punishment for crimes before, so you can pretty much assume what I'll say on the matter. I'm in agreement with Bass, overall. Not exactly torturing, but due punishment. Sure, the news story doesn't explicitly state what he did to her, but you can safely assume that he didn't take her out for cookies and ice cream. The guy WAS scum, he DID have a history of kiddy-fiddling, and he admitted to the crime. Regardless of whether or not the details will be released, he still deserves to be punished for being a sick bastard.

[Amaurote]

I am not against capital punishment on any moral principle. However, I've had people tell me before that it's far less cost-effective for taxpayers than a life sentence in prison. (I have not researched this, so any of you who have or feel like you want to, please feel free and share.) So, I say YES to the death penalty if they cut through all the bureaucracy bullshit, take them out back and shoot them. If it's going to cost us more money to carry out a death sentence (i.e. lawyers, appeals, time spent in jail ANYWAY, etc.), then do away with it and find punishments which more appropriately fit the crime.


Great, Entipy, but the problem with that is that it isn't a moral position, it's essentially an internal acceptance of the principles of capitalism: I think hatred of child molestors and rapists and the desire to see their lives extinguished is both understandable and defensible, but not on the grounds of economy. I have no illusions about the nature of the Western system of jurisprudence, but its biggest problem now is the power of the cash nexus to distort it.

In any case, the economy argument falls down at the first hurdle. Everyone knows how expensive Death Row is, and how long the legal process takes - as it should when we're talking about something as critical as the state murdering people in our collective name. The only way it's going to be cheaper is if the legal process is streamlined, i.e. ditched. I hate to sound cynical, but our system has convicted the likes of the Guildford Four, the Birmingham Six, Stephen Kiszko - I find it difficult to have any faith in the death penalty.

[Diva]

I hate to sound cynical, but our system has convicted the likes of the Guildford Four, the Birmingham Six, Stephen Kiszko - I find it have any faith in the death penalty.

Am, I don't understand this statement and the cases sound familiar. I'll wait to respond to this after.

I still hold deep feelings of anger towards some of the decisions that have happened in the UK. The one that is forever on my mind and saddens me to no end is the decision to release Jon Venables and Robert Thompson (http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/young/bulger/1.html) after eight years of a life sentence for torturing 2 yr old James Bulger. Not only that, but they are granted a lifetime immunity for them them and their family. I think that people would be more willing to accept life sentences if they meant exactly that... LIFE.

The prisons are overflowing and people are let go early. In a society that demands justice, I can't imagine putting them through the revolving door in the jail as punishment.

[Amaurote]

I totally agree, Diva, and at the time I thought they should have served at least another five years, and maybe more - but (and I know many people are going to hate me for saying this) their case was qualitatively different, because Venables and Thompson were children, they weren't young offenders or teenagers, they were just that - kids. Executing them would have been beyond the pale for a civilized society. I think even the most red-blooded, uncompromising republican in Texas would have blanched white before opening up children to capital punishment. They already do where female murderers are concerned: southern honour and chivalry are clearly more powerful factors than adherence to the Laws of Hammurabi.

[Bane]

I hate to say this but crimes of juveniles are signifigantly different than those of adults. I thought I was an adult and wise beyond my years when I was young. I just had an ego. My thought processes and ability to differentiate between right and wrong were massively different. I don't think it should be judged on the same scale. You dont have a sense of the enormity or importance of life when you are a child.

Peterson is an ass though, and deserves whatevers coming to him. Though personally I don't agree with the death penalty (or disagree really, this is one of the hot topics I could really care less about).

[Amaurote]

My thought processes and ability to differentiate between right and wrong were massively different. I don't think it should be judged on the same scale. You dont have a sense of the enormity or importance of life when you are a child.

My feelings exactly, Bane - anyway, for anyone who thinks child killers can't be rehabilitated, the case of Mary Bell (http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/famous/bell/index_1.html) is very instructive.

[Diva]

Ironically enough, I read that story yesterday. I've been combing through that website, on some futile journey to understand why these things occure. I keep trying to think of what would have been a more appropriate sentence. The hardest part is to recognize when it is punishment and when it is vengeance. Do I believe people can be rehabilitated? Yes. Sadly it's society's memory that hampers some offenders.

After reading the Mary Bell story part of me wanted her to be reminded forever of what her crimes where. *sigh* I understand that it's a knee jerk reaction to think that paying for a life is with their own. I guess it's because the victim's family will forever be reminded of the child that was never given a chance. The criminal is given an end date to when they have paid their debt. The family of the victim is given a life sentence.

Another point that I would like to make is that there are some kids that only became more dangerous as they grew. Jesse Pomeroy (http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/history/pomeroy/1.html) is one that I read yesterday, although most serial killers show signs of violence at an early age.

[Amaurote]

What I find interesting is the different way the same society reacted to the case of Mary Bell compared to the way it did to the case of Thompson and Venables little over twenty years later: there was no hysteria, no moral panic, relatively little media attention, despite the fact that in many ways her case was far worse than theirs - she was a double murderer, killed two infants consciously, of her own volition and with a clear understanding of the nature of what she was doing, desecrated the body of one of them and then then taunted the families afterwards. Thompson and Venables appear to have desecrated the body only before, the reference to a battery being inserted up his anus seems to have been fantasy - the train caused catastrophic damage to Jamie Bulger's body.

Also - no-one really talks about the Venables and Thompson's case, we talk about the "Jamie Bulger" case; on the other hand, no-one really remembers the victims of Mary Bell. I don't know whether that's better or worse, but I think the CCTV footage (strangely, if it had been less grainier, it would probably have exerted less power on viewers) had nearly as much impact on the general public here as 9/11 had on America.

[Diva]

I heard that the battery insertion did happen. It makes reference to that and one of the boys fondling him. Not that is makes it any worse, mind you. I think it was more about how much they did. They tortured him, beat/kicked him. Also, I wonder how much the public knew about the details of the murders back then. Our media all but gives vaginal probes to victims these days... The more painful the better. I don't know how reserved they were as far as what happened to the children.

Did you get a chance to read about Pomeroy? He was quite a monster...

[Amaurote]

There were so many contradictory stories, though: first he was being hit with a battery, then the line was that they inserted it in his anus, and then they claimed they put it in his mouth. The upshot is that we just don't know, because neither of the boys was able or willing to clarify matters.

[DJ Malkav]

take a life for a life, what diff is there when we do the same?

[Bassmama]

All I can say is:
Richard Allen Davis-
http://www.justicejunction.com/judicial_injustice_richard_allen_dean.htm

[Bane]

All I can say is:
Richard Allen Davis-
http://www.justicejunction.com/judicial_injustice_richard_allen_dean.htm

I dont get it?

[DJ Malkav]

fucker had a long history damn!

[Bassmama]

That was my point. While there may have been VERY few individuals that changed, the enormous majority had an extensive history that escalated through time. Rehabilitation of pediphiles is an unknown occurance, & the urge & abuse escalates. Richard Allen Davis kidnapped Polly Klaas out of her bedroom, took her to a remote area, tortured & raped her, then murdered her. His violence was lifelong & his tendancy will continue until he dies. He may learn to use the system (like so many others do), but no matter HOW much he acts like he's changed, that's all it would be is an act- a compulsion. I don't want animals like that to EVER get loose, and I CERTAINLY don't want to support him for the rest of his life.

When he is executed, it will be with MUCH more dignity and honor than he EVER gave any of his victims- especially Polly Klaas.

I also lean a lot towards what Entipy said- the monetary consideration IS in there. I just WISH we could change the system so people like Davis and Couey- who we KNOW were the ones that did this- could be executed immediately after sentencing. They don't deserve to breathe the air on this earth with our children.

[Amaurote]

That was my point. While there may have been VERY few individuals that changed, the enormous majority had an extensive history that escalated through time. Rehabilitation of pediphiles is an unknown occurance, & the urge & abuse escalates.

Hmmm, I'm not sure about that, Bass - they re-offend more than other categories, but SOTP programmes here plus monitoring, police registration and supervision have been shown to work when they're properly implemented. The real problem is that there isn't enough preventive monitoring on the victims of paedophila, and the lack of planning when paedophiles get released is a big gap in the system. They can be very manipulative, of course, but in my experience they're nowhere near as clever as they think they are.

I still don't accept this economy argument. You either have a justice system or you don't. If money is going to be the common denominator, we might as well stop pretending that we're all equal under the law.

[Bane]

I'll bow out. :) Not a argument I could participate in rationally without thinking of my own situation.

[Poseidon]

If money is going to be the common denominator, we might as well stop pretending that we're all equal under the law.

It is and we aren't

[Mr. Bojangles]

Well, as much as I'm for killin' the criminals, I do wish that there was less red tape to be cut before it happens. The death penalty has ABSOLUTLELY no preventative influence on offenders. Too bad. I rather like the 19th Century way of doing buisness. Try em, sentence em, and hang em. Took less than 24 hours in most cases.

[Bassmama]

Well, as much as I'm for killin' the criminals, I do wish that there was less red tape to be cut before it happens. The death penalty has ABSOLUTLELY no preventative influence on offenders. Too bad. I rather like the 19th Century way of doing buisness. Try em, sentence em, and hang em. Took less than 24 hours in most cases.

I wanted to suggest that, Bo.... but figured I'd better not be THAT radical sounding. (I'll bring the noose!!!)

[Amaurote]

I preferred the eighteenth century way of doing things when we just shipped out all the criminals to Australia and the New World. Convicts built Australia and America, never forget that - and they made a great job of it, too.

[whitecrow]

ItI wanted to suggest that, Bo.... but figured I'd better not be THAT radical sounding. (I'll bring the noose!!!)

While we're at it, let's bring back bible justice, medievel torture (wait a minute, that one's already back) and viking death tortures as well. Nothing like a good old flaying to teach those crims.

/sarcasm

[Evilpoptart]

Fak em, why not kill everyone thats different then us too? What are human rights anyway? And so what if the person we put the noose on is innocent....cause you know 10% of people on Death Row are innocent....but too bad for them?

I am sorry, but if ONE SINGLE INNOCENT person is killed by the state, then the state needs to remedy the justice system before they go around killing more people

If you wanna be real about it...turn on Court TV and watch The Exonerated....A story about 6 innocent people on Death Row. Or watch the Life of David Gale.

If we do it your way, smoking people right off, I cry at the thought of how many innocent people would be killed. I guess caring about basic human rights isn't important anymore

But I digress, you guys look like you have enough credentials to become omnipotent, so I guess we will just leave who lives and dies upto you. Meanwhile, I'll move to Canada, so I wont be killed for being of a different opinion.

[Amaurote]

Of course, in a very real sense, our prison system hasn't really changed at all from the Victorian era. Poor people constituted 95% of the prison population then, too - the only difference is that the class prejudice was more open than it is today. Working-class? Well, you probably have incipient deformation of your frontal lobes. A mechanic lifestyle will do that to you. Nowadays its "We deplore social injustice" but "By the way, can you lock up some more hapless inner-city drug addicts, please? We have conservatories to protect."

[Evilpoptart]

Danny Glover at Princeton University 15nov01



I would like to talk to you for a moment about consumer protection.

You see, in this great nation of ours, we have laws on the books that protect consumers from faulty products. We protect consumers from drugs that are dangerous. From foodstuffs that are poisonous. From toys and appliances that are defective. The list goes on and on.

We have many regulatory agencies that hire thousands of inspectors and adopt reams and reams of regulations to protect us. The Food and Drug Administration. The Environmental Protection Agency. The people who inspect our eggs and beef and poultry and milk. Imagine, if you will, that you visited your doctor, and she or he prescribed a drug that works miracles for six out of every seven people who take it. But due to a defect with the drug, one out of every seven people who take the drug end up dying.

You can imagine the many lawsuits that would ensue. You can imagine how quickly this drug would be yanked off the market. You can imagine the congressional hearings, the charges and countercharges, the acrimony and finger-pointing that would follow as we rushed to keep our people safe—in this great nation of ours.

Now. Let’s talk about the death penalty.

Since the Supreme Court allowed executions to resume in the 1970s, 741 people have been executed in the United States. Unfortunately, as I give this speech, that number is climbing to 743, courtesy of the states of Georgia and Texas.

And yet 98 people, or about one out of every seven executed, have walked off death row after new evidence emerged that proved their absolute innocence.

Let me be very clear here. I am not talking about people whose sentences or convictions were overturned on what some might call a technicality. I am talking about actual innocence.

Think about it. If one of every seven car tires sold in this country was subject to a blowout, if one of every seven chickens taken to market infected someone with salmonella, if one of every seven cars manufactured had a faulty engine that exploded every now and again, these things would be taken off the market.

But for every seven people executed since 1976, one actually innocent person has been sent to death row. Yet the death penalty remains “on the market"

[whitecrow]

http://www.angelfire.com/stars/dorina/history.html

BING.

The last man hanged in Australia back when we had Executions (1967) was INNOCENT. This is just one case of many.

We've survived nearly 40 years without executions, and we're a peaceful country.

[Mr. Bojangles]

We've survived nearly 40 years without executions, and we're a peaceful country.



We're not. And unfortunately, we're not likely to change that attitude tomorrow. Or the day after. Or any time in the near future. Should people die for the crimes that they commit? I think so. Does that make me right? Maybe not. But this I CAN say. Prison is NOT a deterrent to criminals. Nor is the death penalty. But it's what we've got. Are any of those of you who are so dead-set against putting people to death for killing, rape, child-molestation, or various and sundry other offenses against society standing in line to DO anything about our system? I believe whole-heartedly that a certain amount of law and order, along with severe punishment for those who cause harm to other people is neccessary to any society. We love our kids, raise them in what we consider a proper manner, and some freak off the street snatches one of them up and tortures, rapes and kills them. What would YOU want? Believe me, I don't want ANYONE to have to go through that. But honestly, picture that situation. Nothing is gonna bring back that child, granted. But do you REALLY want that scum to continue to draw breath afterward? Why? And don't give me the tired old "Right To Life" hype either. I want to know why YOU think he has ANY rights after committing that crime.

[Bassmama]

What Bo just said.

They found Jessica Lunsford's body BECAUSE COUEY CONFESSED & TOLD THEM WHERE SHE WAS! Same thing with Davis. They DESERVE death- more than the innocents whose lives they took! There is NO CHANCE that they were innocent of their crimes.

I understand your not wanting to execute everyone that is on death row & that 10% are innocent- I've also watched programs on the Innocence Project. But in these cases, Couey & Davis have both admitted to killing the little girls. The same thing happened with a local girl a few years ago- Sarah Ann Woods was snatched off of her bike & disappeared. The serial pedophile that took her was caught finally when he was trying to grab another kid, Sarah Ann's clothing was found in his closet along with other kids' that had been murdered, & the slimeball admitted to killing the kids. Sarah Ann's body has STILL not been found.

http://www.ncmec.org/missingkids/servlet/PubCaseSearchServlet?act=viewChildDetail&caseNum=782700&orgPrefix=NCMC&seqNum=1&caseLang=en_US&searchLang=en_US

SMALL Crime timeline- http://timelines.ws/subjects/Murders.HTML

[Amaurote]

The Birmingham Six admitted to doing it, too - unfortunately for them, they didn't "admit" to it voluntarily...the upshot is I just don't trust the courts to properly administer capital powers. Why not? Well, would you trust Stimpy with the nuclear button?

And Bo - you know perfectly well that there are plenty of alternatives to the death penalty. We can all muster up the urge to kill those we happen to detest, but the true mark of a civilized person is his or her ability to master that urge.

[Evilpoptart]

To Bassmamma and Bojangles....

EVERYONE IS ALLOWED EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW.

But again, you know everything, included who should live and die....so who am I to argue? You have it al figured out....And thats not surprising, considering you love your guns too. Maybe you have a fasination with death....

Not all Americans here are violent, and the jails are overflowing with DRUG OFFENDERS, not violent criminals. Violent crime is at it lowest in this country in years, yet the media coverage is on violent crime is up almost 600% compared to 10 years ago.

And also I love how you both dodge any argument I bring up, either if its FEAR when dealing with gun countrol, or INNOCENT PEOPLE being executed....I guess some people can't or won't acknowledge the truth, or even really debate something to make a point

I've done nothing but bring the facts to the table in both arguments, and the only retort I get, if any, is I believe this ete ete, if I even get that.

And the funniest part of this whole deal is the fact YOU ADMIT the Death Penalty doesn't work, yet your all for killing people.

Its that kind of stuff that pisses me off so much. Ignoring facts, and just going on pure emotion. Think about shit for once, and no, I mean really THINK. If something is obviously broke, like the death penalty and gun control is, why not help fix it, instead of being stubborn and ignoring the truth of the matter.

This will be the last post I make in this thread, because its obviously not going anywhere. I don't have a time machine, I can't help you escape your medieval sense of criminal justice....

[whitecrow]

Are any of those of you who are so dead-set against putting people to death for killing, rape, child-molestation, or various and sundry other offenses against society standing in line to DO anything about our system? I believe whole-heartedly that a certain amount of law and order, along with severe punishment for those who cause harm to other people is neccessary to any society.

Bo,
Nothing, nowhere gives any human being the right to commit murder.
Read that line again.

And again.

Now what gives you, or the state, or the nation that right? Any heinous crime is inexcusable, and there are a number of criminals that we can never reform. It's a sad truth. However, are you placing not only yourself, but your judicial system and you government above the law. Hang on, didn't THEY just commit murder?

Any government that is willing to flip the switch, tie the noose, inject the serum, cyanide the tanks, arm the firing squad, etc. Is saying that they are above the law.

Am I right in saying that America is the only modern first world country that still has the Death Penalty? Hmmm.

[JakeD]

Bo,
Nothing, nowhere gives any human being the right to commit murder.

But it still happens. Just because you tell someone who's about to kill you that they don't have the right to commit murder doesn't mean that they won't promptly tackle you and bash your head against the floor until you die.

[Diva]

A while back they passed funding for jails to be built in the desert in California. Before a foundation was even dug, it was stopped. The reason? It would be cruel and inhumane to keep prisoners in the desert. Nevermind that it would have air conditioning. Nevermind that Las Vegas is a thriving place in the desert. We voted to create more space for criminals, and instead have criminals let go early because of overcrowding. I would rather have someone rot in jail than get the easy way out.

I have been rethinking my stance on capital punishment. I am not ready to swing the other way, but I do believe we need to work together to achieve a better system. If life meant life, if someone was given 5 to 7 years, then they should AT LEAST be in there for 5. Time off for good behavior should be not be given so generously. If a serial rapist is in a male prison of course he's going to show signs of improvement! Prison is not society. There are no women in prison. There have been so many cases where criminals admitted to working the system. We need to make it harder to do.

I was willing to pay more to build a jail so that criminals were not let go early. I would vote yes to legalize pot so that mild drug users didn't clog the system.

Right now our political state is bad. We have a president who's against abortion, yet had his highschool sweetheart get one. He was an alcoholic, coke head who has a lifetime of hypocrisy... and yet the GOP stands behind him. He made a law to pull the plug on people who where just wasting space in hospitals, yet is fighting to keep a woman alive. He is against gay marriage, yet announced that he will not fight it. This is what leads our country. We need to get back to moving forward. We need to change so many things.

The problem with capital punishment is that there should be NO room for error. I don't think one innocent man is worth seven guilty ones. Unfortunately our system is far from perfect.

[whitecrow]

But it still happens. Just because you tell someone who's about to kill you that they don't have the right to commit murder doesn't mean that they won't promptly tackle you and bash your head against the floor until you die.

And just because they killed, it makes it right ti kill again, eh? Blood over blood. It works wonders in the middle east.

[JakeD]

And just because they killed, it makes it right ti kill again, eh? Blood over blood. It works wonders in the middle east.

Absolutely not, but who's to say that stops them from killing? People are going to kill people if the desire's there, no matter what the means. People have killed people from the beginning of time, and they'll do it until humanity's wiped out by whatever.

[Amaurote]

If a serial rapist is in a male prison of course he's going to show signs of improvement! Prison is not society. There are no women in prison.

Well, yes and no, Diva: I know a few rapists, and one of the key indicators of their behaviour is how they react and relate to female staff, especially female prison officers. SOTP does work to challenge their behaviour: of course they can attempt to undermine it, and in the end anyone who has the intent can work against a rehabilitation programme, but I genuinely believe that most people who offend do it out of short-termism and distorted or perverted thought processes, which is why cognitive thinking coures are so popular in the prison system these days.

Personally, I wouldn't fork out an extra penny for a new prison. I think they're a monument to the vanity of our politicians. Little Napoleons, the lot of them, only without his imagination. They should impose a moratorium on the size of prisons and force our representatives to accept reality instead of blithely continuing with this damaging, protracted stalemate.

[whitecrow]

Absolutely not, but who's to say that stops them from killing? People are going to kill people if the desire's there, no matter what the means. People have killed people from the beginning of time, and they'll do it until humanity's wiped out by whatever.


Too true, mate. But why should we support a system that supports this method of thninking. Instead of a more, shall we say, balanced approach. This isn't the wild west anymore, society has progressed. Killing is not the answer to a violent crime. It never has been.

[JakeD]

Too true, mate. But why should we support a system that supports this method of thninking. Instead of a more, shall we say, balanced approach. This isn't the wild west anymore, society has progressed. Killing is not the answer to a violent crime. It never has been.

Well, society has progressed, but how to deal with murderers is still as much of a paradox as ever, as you can see from the passionate debate on this thread. I honestly don't think there will ever be a way to punish murderers that will please the majority on some level. There's just too many people out there that have seen or dealt with too much crap to rationalize not giving a murderer what they were so quick to dish out. We can say, "Yeah, I don't care what they've been through, it's still not the right thing to do," and we'll be justified in a sense, but a lot of people won't sympathize with that line of reasoning, especially when they've been in a situation where they've lost a loved one to a murder, were almost killed themselves, have dealt with many murder cases (as Bo has) or whatever the case may be.

[Mr. Bojangles]

Look folks, I'm not advocating that we each go out to stand in line and throw stones at criminals. Nor am I saying that some innocent should suffer to further the cause of the gov't policy on dealing with violent criminals. Make no mistake people, it is HARD to get sentenced to die in this country. A jury has to unanimously vote to convict, and the same twelve people aslo have to agree that the defendant needs to die. That just don't happen that often. Now I'll give you the fact that Texas kills more people than any three states in the nation, but dammit, some of those fuckers deserve it. If you don't agree, that's just fine with me...

As far as ther overcrowding due to drug offenders, that is MOST definitely true. Most convicts are there due to a drug related offense, and that is a damn shame. But if you don't want to go to prison, don't use illegal drugs. Period. What else do you want? You're not gonna get locked up for NOT being in possession of some illegal substance or other. Seems a good way to avoid prison to me.

[Unforgiven]

Try em, sentence em, and hang em. Took less than 24 hours in most cases.

Yeah, fuck that 'Justice' thing, eh? Long as more people die, right?

[Mr. Bojangles]

Yeah, fuck that 'Justice' thing, eh? Long as more people die, right?



That's exactly what I said. Justice is what you make of it. How's it justice when some random cocksucker stabs someone and gets off with less than 2 years? What about the rape victim that gets smeared all over the witness stand by the defense attorney and watches her assailant get off without serving a day.

Tell you what. Spend a little time on the streets with the scum of the earth, and then tell me what fucking Justice is.

[Amaurote]

As far as ther overcrowding due to drug offenders, that is MOST definitely true. Most convicts are there due to a drug related offense, and that is a damn shame. But if you don't want to go to prison, don't use illegal drugs.

That's great, Bo, just as long as you realize that you're effectively condoning the imprisonment of people for fecklessness, and that a lot of the people who do drugs either have nothing else in their lives or use them to blot out their personal trauma and misery. Personally, I expect a little bit more from our criminal justice system: a sense of justice would be a start, for example.

[Mr. Bojangles]

It doesn't change the fact that these people chose to use, Am. They made a descion to use the very substance that got them locked up. I personally wish that some of the lighter drugs were decriminalized, but until they are, all any recreational drug user is doing is taking their freedom into their own hands. As soon as pot is legalized, I'll personally drive up to Detroit and get EPT too stoned to see. But till then, I'll still take the shit from anyone I catch smoking it.

[Amaurote]

Sure, Bo, they chose to use, but for the most part their choice was conditioned - their choices were taken away by the destruction of the Great Society ideal, which was just another synonym for civic responsibility. When I look around me at the selfish, silly, short-term-ism of the faces in prison today, the phrase that springs most readily to mind is "Thatcher's Children". They're the misbegotten progeny of the greedy politicos that created the public squalor of the 1980s.

[Mr. Bojangles]

Man, I can definitely sympathize. I HATE taking junkies to jail. They for the most part want to be left to themselves, and do their own thing. The unfortunate reality of the situation is that I Have No Choice. I wish I did. I wish that the silly ass war on drugs would end. Seriously, hasn't the American gov't made enough already? But I do the job in front of me, and I suppose, like any job, it changes your outlook somewhat.

[Bassmama]

EXCELLENT debate & I agree- to a point- that certain elements of society are conditioned to take drugs, but it DOES come down to personal choice. It's just too easy to blame something or someone else for your actions- a poor or abusive upbringing, being born black, female, white, male, Cuban, Puerto Rican, Italian, (insert your favorite nationality or religion here). The truth of it is that if people took responsibility for their own actions, they'd either straighten up or keep doing things because "I felt like it".

Feelings come down to that, too. If someone says something that 'insults' you online, for example, you have the choice of either flaming them back, ignoring it, or asking the other person what they meant by the comment- did they MEAN it as a flame, or did they mean it differently & we are RECEIVING it incorrectly. We have the choice of turning it into a war online or taking it behind the scenes & working it out. Bo has a job where he has to act a certain way- he can't just beat someone or shoot them if he wanted to because he was raised in a chaotic household, was rejected by a girl at age 17, or any other EXCUSE! He has CHOSEN to act a certain way, because he KNOWS to act any other way will mean getting in trouble, fired, & possibly arrested & fined for his actions.

One of the things I LOVE watching COPS for is the people that are arrested for doing something they've already been arrested repeatedly for & crying & begging to be let go. "You GOTTA let me go- I JUST GOT OUT of prison 3 days ago for stealing a car (for the 4the time) if you arrest me, I'll GO BACK! PLEASE DON'T ARREST ME!" This after a high speed chase after stealing another car. Or having an illegal gun, hooking, selling drugs, driveby shooting..... If they didn't DO the crime, they wouldn't be getting arrested for it.

[Diva]

It must be different in California. Most first time offenders caught with drugs get rehab and probation. Unless they're heavy duty dealers, the prison is to full. The druggies in prison are there for stealing to keep their habit, etc... and should be.

I have never tried an illegal drug. The only drug I have tried is alcohol. I have never used a perscription drug for anything other than pain. The whole drug culture is beyond my understanding. I don't blame society for people's drug addictions, though. Ultimately it is your choice to take that drug.

[Amaurote]

I don't blame society for people's drug addictions, though. Ultimately it is your choice to take that drug.

Hmmm, yes, Diva, but that "ultimately" is the crux of the problem - there are just too many genuine mediate causes out there (squalor, misery, abuse, sexual trauma, physical pain, dysfunctional peer groups) that lie behind most drug offences.

[Diva]

Am, I think you know enough about my life to see that you've listed me in almost (if not all) every reason there. I've been there, fought my way out of it. No one could ever make me believe that shooting herione would take away my pain. It's just lying to oneself. I've met so many people who use some traumatic event in their life as a reason for their actions that I am sick from it. I've been so close to death (and wanting it) and yet every time I found some reason to keep fighting. To keep trying to make my life better. Bottom line: they searched out that drug. They chose to take it.

[Amaurote]

Am, I think you know enough about my life to see that you've listed me in almost (if not all) every reason there. I've been there, fought my way out of it. No one could ever make me believe that shooting herione would take away my pain. It's just lying to oneself. I've met so many people who use some traumatic event in their life as a reason for their actions that I am sick from it. I've been so close to death (and wanting it) and yet every time I found some reason to keep fighting. To keep trying to make my life better. Bottom line: they searched out that drug. They chose to take it.

Absolutely, but not everyone is born with your traits, Diva, and not everyone has the hope or spirit to muffle out the fates - and the bottom line is just that, the last line in a series. And I have to say, as horrible as your experiences were, they're a common denominator in the prison population. There but for the grace of God go we.

[Diva]

The key question is: Do you think of it as a reason or an excuse?

[Amaurote]

It's both - but that doesn't make it any the less potent a factor.

[Bassmama]

Diva & most of the people here know that I fit into most of those catagories, too. Unlike Diva, I was a pothead for 7 years straight. I CHOSE to smoke reefer- **I** was in control of my own actions when I rolled it & lit it & inhaled it. I could have used any & every excuse of what happened to me in the past, including lifelong clinical depression, but I ALWAYS said that I did it because I LIKED it. I LIKED being high. If I were going to do something due to my being horribly poor, depressed, victimized, abused, feeling unloved.... whatever, it would have been something totally different than just smoking reefer, but **I** CHOSE NOT TO! To blame anything other than yourself, to not take responsibility for your own actions, is called 'outward motivation' in psychology- and is every alcoholic's excuse for getting drunk & abusing themselves, their partners, family members, society, ..... Joe drinks because his wife nags him, or because the kids are too noisy, or because.... Bullshit! Joe drinks himself into oblivion because HE WANTS TO! Noone forces him into a bar & sits on his chest & pours alcohol down his throat, then forces him to drive drunk, hit & kill innocent people, or go home & beat his wife/partner. You don't like the position you're in, you figure out a way to change it. Diva's story is a prime example- she was in terrible life circumstances & didn't like the way things were going, so changed it, instead of getting worse & CHOOSING to do illegal/destructive things & blame everything & everybody for it. She TOOK RESPONSIBLITY.

By saying that people are arrested because of reasons OR excuses, you are enabling them to not take responsibility for their own actions & therefore repeat them. They don't change their actions because their excuses are backed up by others. They are repeating them because they are getting something out of them- excitement, others' pity, noteriety.... something. SOME need is being fulfilled.

[Amaurote]

By saying that people are arrested because of reasons OR excuses, you are enabling them to not take responsibility for their own actions & therefore repeat them.

Well, that's absolutely true, Bass, but then again, I don't see anyone here suggesting that: both yourself and Diva are quite legitimately arguing that to some extent crime is a matter of choice. I'm not denying that, but I think that the people who usually make those choices invariably have considerably fewer options than those who usually don't. I just think something, somewhere has gone missing in the public debate: if all prisons are are warehouses for the feckless poor, just what kind of society have we created, and by defending that situation, just what kind of values have we absorbed from it?

[Unforgiven]

That's exactly what I said. Justice is what you make of it. How's it justice when some random cocksucker stabs someone and gets off with less than 2 years? What about the rape victim that gets smeared all over the witness stand by the defense attorney and watches her assailant get off without serving a day.

I'm not discussing that. I'm discussing state-sponsored revenge killing. I never said I think they should get out in two years.

Stay on topic, man.

[Diva]

I just think something, somewhere has gone missing in the public debate: if all prisons are are warehouses for the feckless poor, just what kind of society have we created, and by defending that situation, just what kind of values have we absorbed from it?

Our society is greedy. Thieves are poor and rich. The time they spend in jail (if any) is based on if they can afford a good lawyer. Have you ever gone to a grocery store in a poor neighborhood? The food quality is less. When the riots were over people had to travel on buses to get to a supermarket. The ones in their neighborhood were burnt down. I talked to some friends who traveled and they were amazed at the quality of food... The prices were higher, but it didn't balance out. The poor get lower quality of EVERYTHING. But I don't think that's what makes a criminal.

I live in a plastic state. We should rename it to Mattelifornia. Everyone lives expensive and measures each other by what they have. It's quite depressing, really.

I think that we have lost our morals. In it's place there are rules and religion. Instead of doing what's right we have a society of people who do what they can get away with. Our prisons are not for rehabilitation anymore. They're for punishment and vengeance. The question is... where do you start to rebuild?

[Amaurote]

Our society is greedy. Thieves are poor and rich. The time they spend in jail (if any) is based on if they can afford a good lawyer. Have you ever gone to a grocery store in a poor neighborhood? The food quality is less. When the riots were over people had to travel on buses to get to a supermarket. The ones in their neighborhood were burnt down. I talked to some friends who traveled and they were amazed at the quality of food... The prices were higher, but it didn't balance out. The poor get lower quality of EVERYTHING. But I don't think that's what makes a criminal.


That's absolutely true, but you can't really work in prison and blank yourself to the fact that the people getting locked up aren't speaking with the accents of privilege, which leaves only two explanations: either the poor are immoral, or the law is, because the number of middle-class people in prison is as minimal as it ever was, with the exception of paedophiles, who seem to come from more white-collar backgrounds.

[JakeD]

I'm not discussing that. I'm discussing state-sponsored revenge killing. I never said I think they should get out in two years.

Stay on topic, man.

I haven't really seen you discuss anything, aside from making one or two-sentence statements.

[Unforgiven]

But at least my two sentances address the topic being discussed.

Side note: Touche, though.

[Mr. Bojangles]

I'm not discussing that. I'm discussing state-sponsored revenge killing. I never said I think they should get out in two years.

Stay on topic, man.

Looked to me as if, barring the sarcasm, you were commenting on "Justice", dude.

[Bassmama]

I truely believe that the older one gets & more life experience one attains, the more realistic one gets. I used to think an aweful lot like Am & Unfy, but through working in an emergency room & in ambulances, & being married ( :rude: ) to someone who worked closely with Law Enforcement & knowing QUITE a few of them through the years, I've changed QUITE a bit on my thinking.

You think that the parents of the 9 month old that was brought into the ER when I was there would have held his feet, legs & stomach against a red hot heater until the skin was crispy if they knew it would happen to them because they'd done it to him? He also had burns on his back & face, but they were only 2nd degree.

You think the guy that beat & raped a woman, then threw her over the 2nd floor railing would have done it if he knew that's what would have happened to him? He was her husband- for about 6 months- and she had been packing to leave because of the frequent abuse by him & he caught her before she left.

How about some of these serial killers? Say you walk in & find your whole family murdered, tortured, & raped with various objects- do they deserve long term care where they'll be babysat for the rest of their lives?

Unfy- you tell us to stay on topic, but you've gone from reality- KNOWING that these monsters viciously killed these people (in one case a 9 year old child)- & have applied hypotheticalism to it- '10% are possibly innocent'. For the ones that are possibly innocent, yes, take more time, but for the ones that we KNOW did it- they confessed or the evidence is just irrefutable- why NOT put them down lke the rabid dogs they acted like? Maybe you should start working in law enforcement & see if you feel the same way after a few years on the streets. You also could join in on the discussion, instead of hurling out angry one liners. We want to hear WHY you think the way you do, but maybe you shouldn't join in if you're likely to get hysterical & not keep your temper- which, BTW we ALL have trouble doing once in a while, so I'm not picking on you. (I'm referring to myself here, too!)

Now we're discussing the reasons for their actions. Am thinks it's more due to their habitat & circumstances & I think it's a total lack of morals & responsibility.

Am- YOU know that there are many, MANY prisoners that are constantly getting in trouble for some pretty ingenious things- why aren't they using that cleverness lawfully? If they can construct a tatoo needle from a CD player, figure out a way to make a sharp implement & hide it, figure out what they can smoke & how to light it- which they regularly do along with thousands of other ingenious things- why couldn't they use that in a regular job or a business? I've known some TERRIBLY poor peole during my life- but they NEVER stole, robbed banks, hurt others... and I have known some extremely rich people that were the most unprincipled, greedy thieves & liars I've ever met in my lifetime. The worst one was a multi billionaire that worked in the Diamond Exchange in New York City. I TRUELY believe that it IS choice.

Anyway, when (if) they make pot legal, Bo- I'll meet you on your way to Michigan & we'll get stupid together. I'd be HONORED to be in such good company. And, yeah, Unfy- we'll save enough to get you incoherant when we get to you!

[Unforgiven]

For the ones that are possibly innocent, yes, take more time, but for the ones that we KNOW did it- they confessed or the evidence is just irrefutable- why NOT put them down lke the rabid dogs they acted like?

All the ones that have been put to death then later shown to be innocent, or just barely made it out, were all once 'proven' guilty as well. No such thing as absolutely knowing guilt.

[Mr. Bojangles]

Based on that line of reasoning, nobody sould ever serve time in prison for committing a crime, much less be subject to the death penalty.

[Bassmama]

Based on that line of reasoning, nobody sould ever serve time in prison for committing a crime, much less be subject to the death penalty.

I agree, Bo. Why bother to have anyone arrested?

BTW, Unfy- where do you live? We'll arrange to have all the murderers, rapists, serial killers, & torturers move in around you.

[whitecrow]

I agree, Bo. Why bother to have anyone arrested?

BTW, Unfy- where do you live? We'll arrange to have all the murderers, rapists, serial killers, & torturers move in around you.

Okay, Bass and we'll stage public executions on your front lawn.

[Diva]

Okay, lets set a different tone folks. Remember, no laws will be changed based on this thread.

For those against capitol punishment, what are the alternatives that you would suggest? We are talking about people who are violent criminals, not someone caught smoking pot. Be realistic, please. If we all could take some happy pill and never do wrong again I would be first to offer money to have it given.

For those who support capital punishment, what do you suggest be changed to make sure that innocent people are NOT put to death. The 'you have to break a couple of eggs' theory is NOT acceptable.

Lastly, what do you think needs to be done to change the system we have? Do you have any other suggestions?

NO FLAMING.

[Amaurote]

If we all could take some happy pill and never do wrong again I would be first to offer money to have it given.

Always tempting, and yet - wouldn't that be just a society stacked with clockwork oranges?

I think it's pretty clear that there is no one solution to crime, it's simply a messy process of rehabilitating and enabling the weak, impoverished, powerless, traumatized and feckless into a decent citizenry. The very serious offenders (and I define that very narrowly, I might add) should be confined for life, but I'm not in favour of double punishment theory, just removing them from harm's way so we don't have to look at them any more is fine by me. Anyone who thinks our criminal justice system is soft on criminals is missing the point: drugs, poverty and abuse are still the main factors in crime, and until capitalism is effaced for good we're going to see the vices of the possessing classes refracted down into the "Me, too" stash-grabs of the beggar democracy.

[Evilpoptart]

Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4409857.stm)

Death penalty 'at record levels'

Nearly 4,000 people were executed worldwide in 2004 - the most in nearly a decade, Amnesty International says.

US changes

The United States - one of the very few democracies on Amnesty's list - last month banned the death penalty for crimes committed by minors.

The number of death sentences is falling in the US, according to the New York Times.

A total of 144 death sentences were handed down in 2003, the lowest level since 1997, the newspaper reported.

Ms Green welcomed the fall in death sentences, but said the US should go further and ban the death penalty.

"We believe it's wrong. The cardinal basic human rights laws say there is a right to life and a right not to be punished in a cruel way."

She disputed surveys that show a majority of Americans support the death penalty.

And this part is what I been saying all along:

Slightly more Americans opposed the death penalty than supported it - if a life sentence without the possibility of parole was the alternative, she said.

More than 100 people had left death row in the US when their convictions were overturned, she said.

"There is so much evidence that the death penalty is being applied unfairly, the very possibility of executing anybody who is innocent is reason not to have it," she said.

And she cited a question former UK Prime Minister Ted Heath asked of death penalty supporters: "The real test is, is that person willing to be the innocent one who is executed?"