Go Ahead... Police Yourselves

[Diva]

Ten days after an officer shot to death a 13-year-old who backed a stolen vehicle into a police car, the city Police Commission on Wednesday approved limits on when officers can shoot at moving vehicles.

"It's time for us to stand up and take back our community. We will police ourselves," The Nation of Islam's Rev. Tony Muhammad said to a standing ovation.

Muhammad said citizen "soldiers" would take to the streets Tuesday night to monitor the streets, but LAPD spokesman Jason Lee said no such community policing occurred.


I hate when they flip the race card. It was the middle of the night and they were chasing a stolen vehicle that backed into the police officer. With the adrenaline pumping and not knowing the intentions of the person in the car I can understand why the officer shot ten times. Anyone who says they'd only shoot once is a liar or a marksman... and a liar. The kid fucked up and it cost him his life. It's sad, but he wasn't an angel. Angels don't steal things and ram them into cops.

I love how the The Nation of Islam's Rev. Muhammad said they'd police the streets themselves. Oh really? Not one of you walked outside and did it. The gang bangers and drug dealers are still all around you. These are your family members, neighbors, friends. Police them. You think you can make the streets safer? Do it. Get your asses outside and protect your community. People talk really tough when they have an audience, but I'll bet you $10 the next time someone robs or attacks the good Reverend he'll have the cops on speed dial.


News n Stuff
º Car batteries used to ship heroin (http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/0215heroin-batteries15-ON.html). L-O-S-E-R-S
º Girl, 12, strangles sister, 9, over hambuger (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/02/15/national/a082719S70.DTL). Twit
º Police hunt late night nudists (http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1286824.html?menu=news.quirkies). No, really
º Teacher makes nude doctored photo of student (http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/news/20050216p2a00m0dm011000c.html#121). Psycho
º Man who cut off his tongue liked Fight Club (http://www.fergusfallsjournal.com/articles/2005/02/15/news/news01.txt). Idjit
º Kid Rock arrested on assault charges (http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/Music/02/16/people.kidrock.charge.ap/index.html). Swift move
º Bikers help foil sex attack (http://www.hbtoday.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyid=3624272&thesection=localnews&thesubsection=&thesecondsubsection=). Yay!
º Dead toddler found in abandoned apartment (http://www.local6.com/news/4204651/detail.html). Fuckers
º Police chief awakens to man playing piano (http://www.boston.com/news/odd/articles/2005/02/15/police_chief_awakens_finds_man_on_piano/). Way to go
º Man is allergic to girlfriend (http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/womenfamily.html?in_article_id=337895&in_page_id=1799). Lovely
º Groom escapes, bride marries another (http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/7242_1243282,00180007.htm). *blink*
º Man hits boy who said good morning (http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/news/20050215p2a00m0dm014000c.html). Bastard
º Man's dog retrieves bag of pot in front of cop (http://www.sanluisobispo.com/mld/sanluisobispo/news/weird_news/10914669.htm). Good dog!

Levity
º Meet an inmate.com (http://www.meet-an-inmate.com/)
º Nerd Porn. (http://www.sexytrek.com/t1/pps=NoAdvert/index.html)
º Happy Tree Friends Valentine (http://happytreefriends.atomfilms.com/watch_episodes/valentine.html)
º Crazy Crocheting (http://www.feliekevanderleest.com/gallery/galerie_nl.html)
º Love poems and quotes (http://www.lovepoemsandquotes.com/)
º Hot blonde (thanks Boozer) (http://www.josielynn.com/gals/03/clean.php)

[Marsbert]

I need to learn how to crochet. For some reason I understand knitting ALOT more than crocheting. I wonder why that is? :winkkiss:

[Amaurote]

To be fair to the Nation of Islam and the Black Panther movement and the rest, they do get a bad rap when you consider that away from the assault rifles and confrontational language they did do a really great job of promoting collective welfare in the black community, in some ways a lot better than the state has managed before or since. But as Sterling and Moon-Light can confirm, this has a very familar ring to UK ears - in the 80s the army in Ulster was shooting teenage nationalist joy-riders every other weekend at roadblocks, the fact is that you just don't know what you're dealing with sometimes, it's a lose-lose scenario.

[Bane]

I'm not sure I would give either group credit for anything outstanding. Any advantage they may have gained for the black community was far and away outweighed by the negative stereotypes they perpetrated. Turning this into a race issue is insane, if I found out a police officer didn't return fire after someone tried to run him down I would be somewhat pissed, if hes willing to ram a police cruiser there is no telling what he would have done had he taken flight.

Add that to the fact that if the officer would have been able to see that it was a 13 year old black child it likely wouldnt have taken him 10 shots to hit him.

[Ice Man]

:banghead: :soapbox: :kneel: :mpower: :warning: :backoff: :banned: I agree in the reference to "any group" should put or shut up. I am so tired of organizations like this without naming names. They range from better to worst in idealistic lifestyle and remain more political than anything else. Other than forcing their lifestyles on others by banning prayer, atempt to ban guns and allowing this and that, they serve no purspose but there own. Let's start a "Humankind" group and start straightening things around here. LOL

[jackwright]

I don't see what is wrong with policeing ourselves. Espescially if we can simply pump 10 rounds into any ****** that steals a car after dark. As long as we got cops firing warning shots into the back of the perps head; it makes me wonder if the various enforcment arms of the various buraucracies might not be better served behind the bars that they, so, love to put the nations citizens behind.

And, I will be happy to discuss this topic at length, complete with facts and statistics, with anyone that cares to.

I sometimes feel that the gistalpo, not unlike the stupid republicans, have worn out their usefulness in the country and we should work our way back towards peace officers and JPs.

[Evilpoptart]

I agree in the reference to "any group" should put or shut up. I am so tired of organizations like this without naming names. They range from better to worst in idealistic lifestyle and remain more political than anything else. Other than forcing their lifestyles on others by banning prayer, atempt to ban guns and allowing this and that, they serve no purspose but there own. Let's start a "Humankind" group and start straightening things around here. LOL


Dont I remember you being against gay marriage?

[Amaurote]

Other than forcing their lifestyles on others by banning gay marriage, atempt to ban social security and allowing this and that, they serve no purspose but there own. Let's start a "Humankind" group and start straightening things around here.

I absolutely agree with all of that, Ice, but Republicans everywhere will fear and resent you for saying it...

[Bane]

And, I will be happy to discuss this topic at length, complete with facts and statistics, with anyone that cares to.

You do see the signifigant difference between pumping 10 rounds in any criminals head and shooting at someone using a stolen vehicle as a weapon against a government employee in place to protect the streets from people just like the one that we're discussing yes?

The thing I really love about these kinds of things is how it turns everyone against the police. It's just fantastic, one of these sensitive issues and suddenly the police are doing a horrible job and they are all just corrupt assholes working for our shit government. When you bring your facts and statistics about how horrible law enforcement is be sure to bring the ones that say how many lives they have saved, how many crimes they have stopped, and so on.

Funny you should mention republicans in the same post as this is exactly the sort of kneejerk reaction they tend to be known for.

[Amaurote]

Dear Santa, this year I have been very good (http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/africa/9812/11/flame.thrower.car/)

[Evilpoptart]

I dont think police are teh EV0l, but I do think 10 rounds is 9 too many.

So what he hit a car?!!? he didnt shoot at him.

I know that police save lives, and I think we need even more of them on our streets, however they need to be held accountable for EVERY shot fired. And personally, I'd like to see a rule such as dont fire unless fired upon become common practice.

You shouldnt be able to kill someone over something so simple as an assumption.

[Amaurote]

I'm open-minded, really. The key criterion for me would be the context of the actual discharge: if they were firing as he drove towards them, okay, his car was a weapon, that is self-defence; if they were firing after he'd broken through their barricade and was attempting to drive away, that is murder.

[Bane]

Myself I guess I'm looking at it in another way. EPT. I'm saying to myself, more than likely the officer was either in or near the car, the damage done to the car was signifigant. That, in my mind, makes the vehicle a weapon... You can't argue with the fact that a vehicle is a pretty badass weapon at that. That's self defense. That IS being fired upon. Do you really believe that the car is any less able to kill that officer than a pistol would be?

Honestly while 10 shots may have been 9 too many, you dont hit someone in a moving vehicle with 1 shot. It won't happen. And why fire in the first place unless you are going to complete the action. If hes not aware of the fact that 1 shot wont stop the person (unless he gets incredibly lucky) he shouldn't have a firearm on the street. He did what he had to do to stop the guy from leaving the scene.

Let's look at it from another direction. Let's say it wasn't a 13 year old kid. Let's say it was a 40 year old meth freak. Would we have the same outcry? No.

Let's go from yet another direction. What if it WAS a 13 year old kid and he drove the car fleeing the cops and hit a pregnant woman, or another kid, or.. fuck anyone for that matter. I know personally I would have thought to myself, that cop should have used necessary force to stop him when he had the opportunity.

[Evilpoptart]

Those are all fine what ifs, however I would have still said the same thing had it been a meth addict.

The way that picture looks to me, the 13 sideswiped then was wedged by the cop car. If the cars were at a stop when shots were fired, then thats 9 too many.

I was telling Diva a bit ago, and Unfy will back me up

A few months ago, a drunk driver in Lincoln Park MI was chased for a short bit, then pulled over. As he was getting out of his car, 4 police officers fired 21 shots. 21 mofoing shots to bring down one drunk male.

They claimed he had a gun, and a gun was found, not in the spot the suspect would have been. The gun was later found to be planted.

My gripe isnt the false evidence, but the 21 shots fired.

I think EVERY peace officer should be held accountable to the upmost of the law for EVERY bullet discharged, no matter WHAT the situation.

[Bane]

I wasn't aware that they weren't held accountable. From what I know of regulations every time a weapon is discharged period there is a full investigation.

Edit:
I should add It's not necessarily the situation itself that I am arguing, its the reaction of this single situation in such a broad manner as jackwrite put forward. I don't believe in damning the entire department or all police because of the actions, right OR wrong, of a single officer. Or even multiple officers.

[Amaurote]

State servant shoots child, community divided, servant uses "self-defence" pretext (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/295068.stm)

The more things change...

[jackwright]

So then is it okay for me to eliminate you, or yours, simply to prevent you from doing something that you mighr do in the future.

I guess it worked in Iraq. Right.

The story HERE (http://www.baou.com/newswire/main.php?action=recent&rid=20041)

[Amaurote]

"A car is a dangerous weapon."

Hmmm, maybe so, but have you ever crashed a roadblock with a Robin Reliant? Any cop that shot a joyrider in one of those should be sentenced to death for lacking a sense of humour.

[Diva]

Here is more information on the event:

The chase began before 4 a.m. when a police unit reported spotting a suspected drunken driver.

After a pursuit that lasted just a few minutes, the fleeing car skidded 102 feet to a stop on a sidewalk. A 14-year-old passenger in the car ran from the scene, and Brown then backed the 1990 Toyota Camry 21 feet into a patrol car, damaging its side. The Toyota then moved forward and ended up next to the police car, officials have said.

Officer Steven Garcia, a nine-year veteran of the Police Department, fired 10 shots, killing Brown.


Also, both police officers are on desk duty until the outcome is decided... that is standard proticol. The LAPD has asked the FBI to get involved and is listing any and all developements so that the people know what is happening. They have also changed the policy on firing upon someone.

Jack, you say that we should police ourselves. Could you tell me how? I am interested in hearing if you have any guidelines, etc... I have always thought that we do police each other to an extent. But I dont know what is expected when someone breaks the law in place of calling the cops.

[Bane]

Should you be allowed to eliminate? what? Do you have training, or an appointment to protect the public? Is it your job to do so? Other than complaining have you taken any interest in civic duties at any point in your life?

Really jackwright I felt that that comment was somewhat moronic, but I will begrudgingly admit to a certain admiration for your avoidance of the point of my post to harp on a single statement. Bravo.

As I mentioned in the above post, I'm very little concerned with your opinion on this single case, but more toward you generalizing it to the entire police department, government, etc.. Say I woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning if you will, but for some reason I find myself really unwilling to tolerate the bashing that constantly goes on over the police department and armed forces simply because of the actions of a few officers in cesspits like L.A.. Quite honestly, having seen some of the shit they have to put up with there I’m surprised there isn’t MORE violence by officers. Not that it makes it any more right but damn, it’s really not a fair game.

I will be the first to say that ANYONE that does something wrong should be punished, however I will not say that the police department is inherently flawed simply because one officer out of many is trigger happy.

EPT, maybe you would say the same over a meth addict (though I have my doubts :p) but I am certain there wouldn’t have been an outcry like this about it. And I'm damn sure that the good reverend wouldn’t have been at his funeral.

Am.. <3 .. I have greatly missed your unique humor.

edit: ohhh. there is a :heart: smiley! <3 anyway!

[Mr. Bojangles]

/me reads the above posts and sighs....

Look folks, till one of you fine people has been in a cruiser that has been hit by another person, 13 year-old, 40 year old meth addict, or whatever, your opinion on the matter will be somewhat one-sided.

EPT, 10 shots WAS too many. IF they all found their mark.

Jack, we DO police ourselves. I didn't come to being outta some goddam test tube, chief.

Bane, a moving vehicle is one hell of a weapon, and a case could be made for self defense, but a 9 year vet should've AT LEAST had the presence of mind to avoid the car, and then take it out without lethal force being used against the driver.

Now bear in mind, none of us was in the car with the cop that night, and have no idea what was going through his mind when he was hit. It is a FACT that the media only gets part of the story on these kinds of situations, and unfortunatly, that part usually makes the cops look like the bad guys.


I've said my piece, rant on.

[Bassmama]

* Mr. Bojangles reads the above posts and sighs....

Look folks, till one of you fine people has been in a cruiser that has been hit by another person, 13 year-old, 40 year old meth addict, or whatever, your opinion on the matter will be somewhat one-sided.

EPT, 10 shots WAS too many. IF they all found their mark.

Jack, we DO police ourselves. I didn't come to being outta some goddam test tube, chief.

Bane, a moving vehicle is one hell of a weapon, and a case could be made for self defense, but a 9 year vet should've AT LEAST had the presence of mind to avoid the car, and then take it out without lethal force being used against the driver.

Now bear in mind, none of us was in the car with the cop that night, and have no idea what was going through his mind when he was hit. It is a FACT that the media only gets part of the story on these kinds of situations, and unfortunatly, that part usually makes the cops look like the bad guys.


I've said my piece, rant on.

Thank you. You said what I was going to.

Just because we read that there were 10 shots, we
1) Weren't there
2) Don't know the events leading up to the shooting
3) Don't know what the officer was thinking
4) Aren't in charge of judging
5) Don't know what the area's like in that section of LA
6) Should know better than to take what the newspapers write as gospel

I'll leave it up to the investigators to judge.

As for the Nation of Islam, the NAACP, & all the others- they're as prejudiced as the KKK in my mind. They exclude others just because of the color of their skin or religion or some other excuse to pump themselves up & feel superior in their ignorance. I'm with Icey on this one- let's have the Nation of Humankind. Boozer- bring the beer???

[jackwright]

I'm back. I'm sorry I left, the internet seems to,ve disappeared for awhile. It will take a bit to formulate my answers to the previous statements. But, before I'm off to put my thoughts in order, I'd like to leave you with something to think about; and this goes out espescially to those of you that were fortunate enough to grow up on the side of the tracks where the police didn't shoot first and ask questions later because there might be someone in the neighborhood that knows a scumbag litigator that might make them responsible for their actions:

What ever happened to the day when deadly force wasn't allowed before you knew that your life was in genuine danger. Or things like due process, innocent untill proven guilty...you know....juries and stuff. That stuff kind of goes out the window when you when you murder the perp at the scene; and I don't see desk duty as much of a deterrant. They'd give me the fukkin' needle. Now that's equal protection, huh.

I'd also like to say that it pisses me off when you try that slight of hand trick where you trade the methhead card for the race card. It's pure, unadultrated, bullshit; if you can't get over your petty paranoia, don't try to rub it off on me. Get this:METHHEADS ARE HUMAN TOO ! That means that they deserve the same rights and privledges as you. Too bad they don't get them. Thanx.

Diva: The sign posted on the outside of my door says,"CAUTION", and means it. And while there is a criminal element in or near the neighborhood where I live, it is a ZERO crime neighborhood. That said, I've never touched anyone in my life that didn't have me backed into a corner. I carry a gun, but I have never shot anyone. My criteria: genuinely in fear for my life. I've actually passed a few chances up. Now, twice in my life I've stood accused of murdering someone. Once was a fight; I was outnumbered, in front of witnesses, and a tumor killed one of them a few days later. It went into the early stages of the judicial process and was thrown out by the judge. I would have never been there had it not been for zealot cops and their counterparts in the DAs office barking for headlines. The other was a 1st degree thing that I didn't know anything about, three states away.

I also know several people that were killed by cops and, as I'll show you later, it took more than just a few 'bad cops' to get away with it.

That being said, I am not anti cop, I simply believe we need less cops, less rules and the police should be held accountable for their actions. In my oppinion, concerning the state of the various enforcement agencies today; all that cops are is just another gang.

Off to put a post togather.

[Amaurote]

Look folks, till one of you fine people has been in a cruiser that has been hit by another person, 13 year-old, 40 year old meth addict, or whatever, your opinion on the matter will be somewhat one-sided.

Goddamn it, Bojangles, you know I don't like to talk about that...it was a long time ago, in other country; and besides, the meth-head is dead.

[Diva]

Jack, I wish I could feel safe with your ideas... but I dont. I've lived on the street, with drug addicts, and in an apartment where the police told me to move. When I said that I couldnt afford it he took down my name, work and school hours and every night a patrol car was there. We had 4 murders within a month on a one block radius. My neighbor chopped up a guy for cheating at cards, some hooker they found in the dumpster and two gang related. I had men chase me with lighters, trying to set fire to my hair. My roommate chased them off with a shotgun. And that area isnt as bad as downtown LA. The drug dealers and gang bangers run rampant. There aren't enough cops to put a dent into the crime and the neighborhood refuses to work together and stop it. The only time I hear about 'policing our own streets' is when some gang banger or drug dealer is shot by a cop. They shake their fists and scream to the heavens about the injustices in this world, yet not one of them follows through on their word. NOT ONE.

To have the kind of world you describe we would have to have people willing to do their part. So far the only people I see willing to put their neck on the line to try and keep the streets safer are the boys in blue.

[Bane]

Bojangles - My point is this, there is always a circumstance, and regardless of if that officer was right or wrong, making sweeping decisions or extreme generalizations such as made by Jackwright based on incidents like this is ludicrous. I'm quite honestly just tired of the bullshit people insist on throwing at civil servants simply because they doing like something that got press.

Jackwright - I keep reading your post and wanting to respond, but I just shake my head and start over again and again. I don't think you look at anything I'm saying with any sort of extended viewpoint and I have to admit, it doesn't surprise me with your vehement stance on the subject that you have had run ins with the law. I also read your posts with more than a little confusion, while I understand what you are talking about with the Meth addict is a human too deal, I don't get what exactly makes me paranoid, or my viewpoint to be paranoia... perhaps you could explain that?

It's not a sleight of hand trick to substitute a methhead for a 13 year old kid. It's called making a point. There would have been minimal press had it been a methhead. There would have been no NAACP/NoI/Insert SI group here interest. You do have some fundamental grasp of where I am going with that I assume? Slight of Hand is you trying to insinuate that *I* think less of the life of a methhead than a 13 year old kid, trying to transfer some sort of resounding guilt to my hands for having made that point. It's a trick that doesn’t really work on me because quite honestly I don't think it's a noticeable difference between a methhead and a car thief, they are both criminals, both would be causing mayhem and putting the lives of others in danger and putting their lives in danger by just such a means. The cop didn’t ask them to ram his cruiser. Regardless of this point you still glaze over the fact that I don’t particularly care about this case, I just stated that it’s a crime to try to use it as an example of what the police department is about.

I'd also like to point out that I really dig the logic in reducing crime by putting less police on the streets and having less rules. It's a phenomenal idea, really. We could abolish some laws and then watch as the crime rate plummets as things that used to be illegal don't have to be worried about anymore. Sure, people will still be doing them, but it wont be illegal anymore, therefore nothing to worry about! It will certainly make us safer as a society.

You say you can point to cases of police killing people. I can point to cases of drug dealers, druggies, and hell even 13 year old kids killing people. Probably I can come up with a lot more than you can. I'd be willing to bet on it. Perhaps we can come up with a plan to have less of them on the street as well. I could go for that.

How many cases could you find of those same people saving lives, stopping crime, putting themselves in the line of fire DAILY for the greater good? Yup, I have no doubt that there is corruption in some places in the police department. There is corruption in the church too. Perhaps we should have a limit on rabbis and priests. Cuz you know, I'm sure they are all banging alter boys. Teachers too! That one teacher banging that 13 year old kid, man we need less teachers as well. Then we could make sure the few teachers we have are morally responsible enough to teach the couple thousand kids per class they would have.

Man is inherently corrupt, there will never be a work of man that suffers no corruption. That doesn’t mean you kill the patient to cure the tumor, at least not if you have any sense.

Your little comment about which side of the tracks people are on... That was cute. I’m going to assume that you were just saying that to be cute rather than saying that for some reason someone else’s opinion may be different because they don’t have the background that you do. It would be my guess that you know next to nothing about the people you are discoursing with, so doing so would be quite presumptuous of you. Believe it or not, some people from similar backgrounds can have wildly different opinions.

I hope your post that you mentioned has some actual sense behind the rhetoric, as you’ve done very little to persuade me that you even have an opinion so much as a grudge. Understandable given your history as you present it I suppose, but little worth in a debate.

[Bane]

That's waaaaaaaaaaay more than I intended to say.. *shrug*

[Evilpoptart]

owned

[Unforgiven]

I dont think police are teh EV0l, but I do think 10 rounds is 9 too many.

So what he hit a car?!!? he didnt shoot at him.

You shouldnt be able to kill someone over something so simple as an assumption.

Fact is, he did an action that was clearly intended to injure and possibly kill. Had he not been stopped, it is a logical prediction that he would have tried again. That alone warrents using any force needed to stop them, protect the officers, and protect the public. This was not some random kid that was walking with a shoelace untied, he rammed a fucking police car with another car.

Ten or not, he was just as lethal, and just as dangerous. If the first shot didn't stop him, they needed another.

[Amaurote]

http://www.nochicktrix.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4693

[Mr. Bojangles]

Jack, you have a good point. I would just as soon have more people willing to follow through on their threats to "kill the scumbags" than not, because a good shot of clorox in the gene pool may be just what we need to get this country together. That being said, most people are cowards or sheep following the herd. If more young people would actually see the "Thug" image for what it is, we'd have a lot less crime.

Of course, if people would get off their asses and DO something about what is happening to our society, then maybe I wouldn't have to wear Kevlar armor and my wife would sleep better at night.

Not fucking likely.

[Evilpoptart]

Well I think it comes down to one simple solution.

We dont need a standing militia anymore....

How about we get rid of firearms. I promise crime will drop, a long ways, if we do....,

[Poseidon]

Outlawing weapons only takes them away from people who get them legaly. A criminal will be able to get a weapon if he/she wanted to, no matter what the law sais.

[Evilpoptart]

in the beginning yes, but after a while the number of gun crimnes will drop. Look abroad......

[JakeD]

Meh. Like Pos said, criminals will still be able to get guns no matter what. Outlawing guns won't do much of anything.

[Bane]

in the beginning yes, but after a while the number of gun crimnes will drop. Look abroad......
Where? Handgun related crimes are up 20-35% since the ban in the UK from what I read. Is there an actual place that has benefitted greatly from a firearm ban?

I hate the NRA with a passion but I'm hesitant to suggest solutions that violate one of the basic things the country was built on. (I of course mean rednecks and cowboys)

[Mr. Bojangles]

Now here's a subject near and dear to my heart. Hand gun related crime...what a crock. CRIME IS CRIME. Guns or not, dickheads are still going to try to take what ain't thiers, commit rape, kill each other, and be generally shitty to each other. Handguns just make it more likely that a "good" person will make it home alive.

[Bane]

*shrug* to be honest here I'm not sure really where I stand on the issue. I just know that I'm very much against *removing* civil liberties. I'm crazy like that (especially with the current administration)

[Mr. Bojangles]

I don't like Bush any more than ya'll do, but one thing he WON'T do is get too happy infringing on our civil liberties. He can't afford it.

[Bane]

Bush isn't a fan of civil liberties that I have noticed. Bush and Company did more more to plow through pesky rights issues than any administration in my lifetime, and as he said himself, hes not up for reelection this time things are gonna be different. With his latest appointments hes shown where hes going with it.. but that's a bit off topic so it's prolly best we don't get into it here I guess, that's certain to spark mucho debate and would best deserve its own thread.

*shrug* It does seem that we are pretty much of the same opinion on the police force issues however.

[Amaurote]

Where? Handgun related crimes are up 20-35% since the ban in the UK from what I read. Is there an actual place that has benefitted greatly from a firearm ban?


That's technically true, Bane, but it's a slightly misleading figure without proper context: after Dunblane the government enjoyed almost unanimous support for an almost total ban on firearms, and it moved pretty quickly. After Thomas Hamilton, there was really no way any government could have avoided banning private ownership, the mood was just too strong. Now the ban is total. Firearms offences are .5% of recorded crime and homicides are down something like 15% last year: the blip is mainly attributable to Yardie violence, and it's worth remembering that the vast majority of firearms offences in the UK involve imitation firearms, which I'm sure is a concept most Americans find almost endearing in its silliness. Gun crime in the UK is puny and pallid, restricted mainly to the rookeries of London and Manchester, and pretty unimpressive even when it rears its ugly head.

And on an anecdotal level, if you ask most Brits on this site and elsewhere, they almost certainly won't have even seen a gun during the course of their lives. There's plenty of crime in this country, especially in the inner cities, but it invariably involves coshes, knives and beer. I know you guys love your guns, but it's costing you dearly, and it's based on a myth: you ultimately beat George III with a regular army, not a militia or a few stray breechloaders captured by the Sons of Liberty.

[Mr. Bojangles]

Granted Am, but the sad fact is that most gun owners in the U.S., me included, would cheerfully blow away the federal agent that came out to our house to confiscate our weapons. To try to take away a right that Americans have had for the last couple of centuries would be chancy, and very likely bloody, at best.

At worst, we'd end up with a shooting war on our own soil as bad as anything in the undeveloped countries we attempt to "Improve".

[Amaurote]

You're totally right, Bo, total expropriation is a non-starter over there for specific historical reasons, and I don't mind admitting that I envy some aspects of gun culture in the US: there are times when I wouldn't mind going off into a field somewhere with an assault rifle and laying waste to every tree-trunk in the vicinity. I've even thought about joining a gun club recently, which is a more reasonable option; but ultimately the fact is that the Libertarian rationale behind gun ownership over there is a bit spurious - in the almost impossibly unlikely event of another George III coming along and occupying you (like Hirohito in The Man in the High Castle), just how easy do people think it would be for that power to stop arms caches being delivered across your million-mile borders to the legions of patriotic American terrorists that would spring up to defend their country?

[Diva]

Americans are violent people. I fully accept that. When someone pulls out a gun and shoots another person for cutting them off in traffic it's time to re-assess. I know quite a few people who have guns. Some collect them like others collect stamps and keep them in beautiful display cases. My father had a gun. I didn't even know that until he died and I found it on the top shelf of his closet in a shoebox. I think that our problems are deeper... and removing guns isn't going to remove the violence. I do think that there should be a much tighter leash on who can get one legally. It's not going to stop them from getting it... but it will make a better case when they use it.

[DJ Malkav]

i dunno but then agne i maybe crazy but i never leave my house with out my blade. and in a few week si'll have my concled wepons permit so yeah i'll "police myself" since i was trained by the milarty for shuch things. MP was my frist pick for my mos

[Amaurote]

Americans are violent people. I fully accept that.

I wonder about that, though, Diva, I really do. Road rage incidents occur all over the world, and your crime scene is far from unique: it's only where you allow the proliferation of guns that you see gun violence. If there are so many homicidal people out there, why make it easier for them by multiplying their weapons of choice?

What I do find ironic is the way the Right characterises this as a liberty which is constantly under attack from nannying socialists: meanwhile, the defence of a much more fundamental and positive right like pensions is characterised by the GOP as vested interests standing in the way of progress. Actually, the thing that strikes me is how little anything ever really changes, how complacent Congress is about American deaths from firearms.

[Poseidon]

MP was my frist pick for my mos

/me hands DJ Malkav a coffee and a bagel
( I have an MP friend, so I know )

[jackwright]

First, and once again, I apologize for keeping you waiting (like you're holding your breath), we are experiencing a terribly wet spell, for the desert, and it is effecting my connectability to the web very adversely. I'm trying.

I've labored for a couple of days, trying to decide just how to put my thoughts and opinions to words here. I'd considered outlining some of my personal experiences and observations, concerning the law enforcement community (which have been primarily negative), for you, in order to give you a feel for where my opinions come from. I'm not sure, yet, if that would serve this discussion well, and have decided to wait and see where we go from here.

That said, I'd like to ask Bane, what it is that makes you think that I'd not be active in the civil sense. And to answer will say, yes, I try to take part in all of our local community functions. Although in my current community there isn't much (the local water system, fire [which we fund ourselves] and a few annual parties). I once took a, newly elected, Sheriff through a brutality trial that delayed his affirmation until after he'd attended some aggressiveness management training. And, I’ve actively campaigned against numerous local candidates in the past. I’ve even taken part in a manhunt or two. Until my disability I kept my underground certification (MSHA) current, simply so that I could offer assistance in local underground search and rescue operations; and I know my area well enough that, despite the fact that I'm disabled, I can still offer assistance in these types of operations, in the area, in the form of information. I've always offered myself to the local volunteer fire department and search and rescue teams. Until recently, I participated, annually, in holiday season food and help drives, from beginning to end, sponsored by a Christian church, even though I am not Christian. In fact, I am as disappointed, and untrusting, of western Christianity as I am with the judicial branch of our government. I will never pass a stopped motorist on the highway without finding out if they need help. This includes a sheriffs deputy the day before yesterday. In the past I've volunteered my time, as a lifeguard to youth boxing groups, church groups and local little league baseball and if there were any of this in my community, right now, I would be giving them my time. And I don't do it because I need my back patted, I do it because it needs to be done. So, you can come down off your high horsie now; regardless of our difference of opinion, I am human. Don't shoot me.

Also, Bane: I'm wondering, is there some sort of secret hand shake to identify common sense. Because, you know...not only do I know how to drive, but I know why I know how to drive...and the last time I went to the range with a police officer, I shot better...by about 30 percent...large bore handgun...with one hand...and didn't even need to bother with them fancy earmuffs and yellow glasses....hell, i could reflex shoot better than he could with all the bells and whistles and daily access to a nice indoor range. I've also been trained and certified, in one state to handle and shoot automatic firearms. And, I'd like to go on record, right now and say that I've never mistaken a car thief for a killer. And, you can color me dumb, but I always thought it was every bodies responsibility to protect the public.

And, as someone that, throughout the course of his life, has been a 13 year old problem child and a 40 year old methhead; YES !! it would matter. It is a pretty narrow minded point of view that says it is okay for the police to kill anyone that isn’t you.

Then: my statement about different sides of the tracks didn’t have anything to do with my life experiences. It was a simple parody to indicate that all people are not created equal under the long arm of the law. That is simply fact; there are parts of town where the residents are treated differently than residents of other parts of town. I don’t like it but that’s the way it is. If you don’t possess the fortitude to understand that; then we haven’t much to talk about.

Also; I don’t care about all the lives the good, or bad, officers save, or all the good that they do in the community. That’s supposed to be what they hired on for; it’s why they make the big bucks. And you will never convince me that they are protecting and serving the public by killing them.

Next: I would like to say that it is not my intention to offend or personally attack anyone (except maybe stupid republicans) and will appreciate it if folks would do me the same courtesy. I apologize if I've offended anyone thus far, that is not my intention. My sense of humor is sick and that's the way I like it.

Which brings me to my 'stupid republican' disclaimer. When I use the term stupid republicans, I don't mean genuine republicans; which I don't believe even exist any more, except, possibly, in the democratic party. When I use the term 'stupid republicans', I'm referring to the 50, whatever, million idiots that re-elected a fascist regime into place that wouldn't understand fiscal, legislative or judicial conservativism, if it snuck up behind them and pulled their guts out through their asshole (more on this soon). My politics, by the way, are by, and large, fairly conservative.

Bojangles: I appreciate your assertion that it would be nice if people would become more active in their personal protection. But I would like to add that terms like thug and scumbag should be redefined to encompass, simply, thugs and scumbags and not remain catchall terms in which to bury a nations propaganda and paranoia induced class, racial and religious bigotries. Unfortunately, you and I both know what the law enforcement community generally does when a citizen, right or wrong, institutes vigilantly justice. Regardless of the fact that many law enforcement agencies began as vigilantly groups.

Now. let's get to what I believe is the core to this whole issue. And I'm going to use the LAPD because they are close to home. As far as I'm concerned that departments record is reprehensible; as bad as some third world dictatorships. The force is failing the people. The people are failing the force. And it is the poor and the minorities that are footing the bill, often times, with their lives. And, I truly doubt that LA is, at all, unique in this respect.

One of the major causes is policy. Authoritarian administrations institute poor policies in secret, closed meetings; or meetings that the effected public are never going to be able to attend. Then when the officers on the streets abuse their discression concerning these bad policies, the public relations arm (spin doctors) scramble with propaganda campaigns to cover their asses. Ultimately, the DAs office doesn’t press charges, the poor victimized officers file suit, them and their scumbag litigators get rich, and the real victims get labeled as whining maggots, reverse racists and troublemakers. And the viscous circle is left to begin again.

Let’s look back a few years at the Rodney King incident. Remember, the nation looked on, dumbstruck, as a handful of LAs finest threw the boots and the sticks to a black man that appeared to be, simply, trying to protect himself and begging them to stop. Lucky for him that he was in his own car huh. So, up jump the spin doctors and played the PCP fiend card. But that didn’t wash. So they played the bug eyed shit maggot card. That went over like a fart in a space suit. So, what next; some nice officer went public and explained that the officers were within the purview of the administrations policy and procedure. He even wrote a book on it. Then come the spin about broad sweeping policy adjustments. Black Rodney made a few bucks and earned himself a harassment detail that, probably, still dogs him today. And the poor, picked on , police officers were acquitted of any wrong doing. South central blew a gasket, A Korean shopkeeper killed a black kid, the police exited the neighborhood and that white boy got a bunch of the shit kicked out of himself for being the wrong color in a no whitey zone. Clear across the country people were locking up shop early and heading for the burbs as they feared that the world was going to explode.

Why was everyone afraid that the world was going to explode ? Oh well, it doesn’t really matter; shit cooled down, after it quit smoking, and the viscous circle was left to repeat itself again.

Let’s see, a couple of LAs finest just got rich for beating a black teen on camera. Odd, but that link seems to have completely disappeared from LAPDs official site since yesterday. So, try an archive search for Rodney King and see what you get. Ten pages of nothing.

Can we say Stanley Miller ( http://www.lapdonline.org/portal/generic.php?page=/press_releases/press_releases.htm). Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. ( http://www.lapdonline.org/portal/generic.php?page=/press_releases/press_releases.htm)

Oh well, let’s look at Devin Brown ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Devin+Brown+LAPD&btnG=Google+Search) and The LAPD ( http://www.lapdonline.org/portal/generic.php?page=/press_releases/press_releases.htm). It would appear that there are some fundamental policy problems here; you know, in light of the fact that the damage control team is regurgitating up that old ‘broad and sweeping policy change’ line of shit. They are also spewing a bunch of tripe about open disclosure af all the evidence; which a search of the official web site will show is not forthcoming.

Yet, the truly ugly policy seems to have completely evaded scrutiny once again. Can anyone here guess what that particular policy is ? Nope, it ain’t got nothing to do with murdering spics and ******s; it revolves around emptying the magazine into anyone that a cop is lucky enough to get a shot off at. It makes me sick ! And stop the fuckin’ boo hooing already, I’ve seen the confirmed kill t-shirts that so many off duty officers so love to wear around.

Try as I might, I can’t see where that type of policy has any redeeming value. Unless you consider one sided stories in front of the shooting review boards redeeming. Consequently, I do not. You know, if I’m involved in a shooting that makes it into the criminal justice system; if I’ve fired a second, not tenth, shot, the prosecution is going to use the second shot to show the jury that murder was my intent, and push for a 1st degree conviction. I ask again: where is the equal protection and continue to insist that the people are not best served and protected by killing them.

You see, I have a hard time understanding why our police officers don’t get together and stop this policy. But they wont. Why ? I’ll tell you why.

CREEPING FASCISM !!!

That’s right, you heard right. The secret word for tonight is creeping fascism. And to go with our creeping fascism secret word is the, The 14 Characteristics of Fascism ( http://www.veteransforpeace.org/The_14_characteristics_030303.htm) secret website.

Your mission, should you chose to except it, is to review these 14 characteristics and see how many you can spot, right here, in this thread. Then look at how they’ve worked their way into your daily lives.

And, if you find yourself making rationalizations to justify these characteristics in your lifep; do Amerika a favor, just kill yourself.

~ Jackwright sits back and listens for heads to start exploding ~

[Evilpoptart]

Like Am said, gun crime is ALOT lower abroad where guns are banned.

I know people have problems about taking the guns away.

So I ask, why do you need them?

I'll answer for you....

FEAR

Its that simple.

Fear of your neighbor. Fear of a crime that may or not happen. fear of a long dead tyrannt getting revenge for the war of 1812?

Just by owning a gun, your 40x more likely to die by one. The second ammendment was written in a different time and place, when citizens needed guns, to defend themselves from the likes of George III. And those were muskets. A far cry the the advanced hand gun/assault weapon technology around today.

We have an army, we have police. Normal citizens dont need guns. England isnt going to invade. I am FUCKING SICK TO TEARS with all this cold dead hands crap.

YOUR KILLING PEOPLE!!! Your gun rights cause more harm then good. Thats a irrefutable fact.

So grow up realize its 2005, not 1795, and some things, just are a bit unnesessary in this day and age.

I do appologize for the tone, but the civil liberties argument has grown thin. The Constitution wasnt written with todays technology, and mentality in mind, when it came to gun ownership.

And the sooner gun owners realize this, the better off this country will be

Gun deaths drop sharply after Aust puts tougher restrictions (http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/gunaus.htm)
Gun Crime not just a city problem (http://my.webmd.com/content/article/94/102921.htm?z=1728_00000_1000_nb_01)
Gun Deaths per 100,000 people by country (http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=6166) (Guess whos number 1?)

I am open to other opinions, but if you even begin to say second ammendment or it dont work in other countries, I'm going to be the asshole and ignore you.

Its time for gun owners to OWN UP and come up with a halfway decent defense why they should be allowed to posses such a thing that takes such little engery to use, and yet causes so much hurt.

[jackwright]

Not to worry folks. That's just the sound of the first head exploding.

[Evilpoptart]

JW, I didnt even know you posted when I wrote that.

But for future knowledge....I need to know where your reservation is when the GREAT RACE WAR starts, and people start killing their neighbors.....

[jackwright]

I'm sad to say that it is close enough to LA that we will suffer ab major over running of sheep from that city.

Consequently, you are far more optomistic about the state of affairs in the nation today than I am. I'm actually beginning to believe that I'm going to see it in my lifetime. However I don't believe it will be a race war; I think it will be a class war, made up of mostly minority races.

And, when guns are outlawed, I will still have guns.

[JakeD]

Someone had to do it.

[Mr. Bojangles]

As far as police brutality is concerned, shit, I've INDULGED in it.

Example 1- After catching a rapist, (in the ACT), I beat him bloody with a blackjack and my left hand.

Example 2- upon arriving at a known child molester's residence, I mad etthe cocksucker cry like his victims before arresting him.

Example 3- while working as a prison guard in my early 20's, I slapped an inmate that assaulted me with a homade knife, or "shank" as it is called, with a steel pipe known as a Bean Tool.

These are just a few examples of the kind of thing you'll find in ANY police department in the country. Whatever you call it, facism, acting like some jack-booted Nazi on the warpath for the furor, tough. I made those choices, and I'd do it again.

[Mr. Bojangles]

Ept...dude. I know that if guns were banned that crime stats would drop. That ain't the problem. The problem is he mindset of the criminals. Do you really think that we'd be better off if only the cops and criminals had guns? Make no mistake, they'd still have them. The ONLY reason that we have less crime on small towns is that most people have guns. I feel sympathy for the stupid fuck that breaks into my house when I'm not around, because my wife will splatter them all over the front lawn. And God help them if I'm at home. Removing the guns is not gonna solve the problem. It is a comfort to have a few of them, however.

[Bane]

Let me start this with a disclaimer. I only skimmed your post. I know that's kind of rude after inviting you to reply, but it's seriously the best I can do. I tried, but honestly when you start getting into all the conspiracy theory junk.. well.. *shrug* it doesn't hold much interest to me. There is no conspiracy.

I DID read that you are active in civil charities, for which I salute you. It's a fantastic thing when someone gives back to the community. However, this is not the full extent of the questions I asked you, now is it? I asked you if you had the training as well, and obviously you don't if you consider safety glasses and earmuffs as "fancy bells and whistles". They are for safety, not improving the shot.

I'm also going to be brutally honest with you when I say I don't give a shit if you were a 13 year old assassin at large or a 40 year old methhead, or honestly if you still are a methhead. When I was younger I did things that were wrong, some very wrong. I look at this story from the viewpoint of someone who was stealing cars when he was 15, you know what? I didn't give a shit at that point who I hurt. I doubt very much that kid did either. Difference maker? I never tried to ram a cop car. I do adore how you glaze over the fact that he was a criminal acting recklessly.

Follow this with me here JW: HE WAS DOING SOMETHING WRONG, ENDANGERING THE LIVES OF OTHERS. He wasn’t some innocent walking around with flowers flashing a peace sign at passerbys while out stealing a car at 4am. 4am, you get that? He wasn’t Johnny Any Citizen walking around minding his own business that was executed. He was a criminal who got killed by an officer in the law in the act of committing a crime. He should have been home, in bed, not out ramming cars. Something happened to him that was very bad, because he put himself in a position where it was possible for it to happen, nay, likely for it to happen.

I also enjoy how you have picked the LAPD as your baseline of judgment. And let me explain why I think you’re full of shit here, you didn’t pick the LAPD because they are close to home, you picked the LAPD because they are rife with corruption and in an area where they need to make decisions like this daily. But as you said, you don’t care about the ones doing good do you? You only want to make your decisions by examining the ones that are doing bad. By using your means of argument, (aka ignore the good, single out the bad) I can pull up a couple articles about methheads raping and murdering and that would pretty much erase your fine civil record, because obviously you would be a rapist and a murderer as well, no? Another disclaimer, that’s not trying to say you are either of those things, just explaining how inane your accusations are. Perhaps like your other issues you only understand them when reflected on yourself.

I’m going to ignore the rest because quite obviously you have no point save for saying one more thing.

And, when guns are outlawed, I will still have guns.
A methhead who won’t give up his guns is a reason in my mind that I don’t believe there are even close to enough cops on the street. You should know as well as anyone that that drug does not allow you to act in a responsible manner and if you say different you are full of shit and fully aware of it. Saying something like that after making the arguments you made in my mind invalidates anything you may have to say on the moral responsibilities of your fellow citizens. My opinions of course, but you come across as a very close minded, overly paranoid person with a grudge.

Forgive me if I missed anything informative in your post but this is about the end of my participation with wild conspiracies.

Other news about the thread, guys lets not take this into the whole gun control direction and try to keep it on topic, we can probably start a new thread about that and get a good debate going but.. let’s stay topical in this one for now. :P

[Mr. Bojangles]

Allright Bane, you've a point. Let's take the gun control debate elswhere then.