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Amaurote
01-19-05, 05:31AM
Fears of 'abuse' photos backlash

UK soldiers in Iraq could suffer the consequences as images of troops allegedly abusing Iraqi civilians are beamed around the world, it is feared.

The Conservatives and Liberal Democrats said the photographs could lead to a backlash as Iraq's elections loom.

The pictures emerged on Tuesday at a court martial where three Royal Regiment of Fusiliers soldiers are facing nine charges.

One has admitted one assault charge, but all other charges are denied.

Twenty-two photographs released by the court martial include images of naked Iraqis apparently simulating sex acts.

The Tory's shadow defence minister, Keith Simpson, said he was "horrified" by the images.

He said the vast majority of the British military would regard them as "obscene" and they would "realise the impact in Iraq".

Liberal Democrat deputy leader Sir Menzies Campbell said: "The task of British forces in the difficult and sensitive run-up to the election on 30 January will be made more difficult by publication of these photographs.

"These pictures will inevitably open old wounds and be part of drawing parallels with Abu Ghraib."

On Tuesday the head of the British Army, Gen Sir Mike Jackson, condemned abuse but would not comment on the pictures.

He stressed that only a "small number" of the 65,000 British troops who had served in Iraq had been accused of any mistreatment.

L/Cpl Darren Larkin, 30, from Oldham, Greater Manchester, admitted one charge of assaulting an unknown man in May 2003, but denied another charge.

Cpl Daniel Kenyon, 33, and L/Cpl Mark Cooley, 25, from Newcastle upon Tyne, entered not guilty pleas at the court martial in Osnabruck, Germany.

The offences the soldiers are charged with are alleged to have taken place at a Basra aid camp, known as the Bread Basket, on or around 15 May 2003, weeks after coalition troops had ousted Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein's regime.


The three soldiers are accused of abusing looters who were being detained at the camp in southern Iraq after attempting to steal powdered milk and food.

The charges also include two relating to the alleged placing of a detainee on the forks of a forklift truck.

Cpl Kenyon was described as a "war hero" who had saved several lives by his defence counsel on Wednesday.

Joseph Giret told the court the accusations against Cpl Kenyon stemmed from orders given by his commanding officers.

Camp commander Maj Dan Taylor is due to give evidence on Wednesday.

He had ordered his soldiers to "work hard" any looters they captured, the court martial heard on Tuesday.

Lt Col Nick Clapham, prosecuting, told the hearing that order was in breach of the Geneva Convention.

If found guilty, the trio, who are stationed at a British army base in Osnabruck, northern Germany, could be jailed and discharged from the army.

They are being tried before Judge Advocate Michael Hunter and a panel of British officers.

The court martial, expected to last three to four weeks, comes just days after a US soldier was sentenced to 10 years in jail after he was found guilty of abusing prisoners at Abu Ghraib jail, near Baghdad.

BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4186581.stm)

Diva
01-19-05, 07:16AM
This was a tough one to answer. I think that if you changed "West" to "society as a whole" I would have clicked on that. We have been on the fast track to moral decay for a while now. By "we" I mean society all over, not just the West.

I don't want to condemn the military as a whole based on individual acts. I know far too many decent people who are soldiers. I also don't blame the higher ups completely. Those individuals who participated in these acts chose to on their own free will.

Amaurote
01-19-05, 09:19AM
I voted for the first option, because as decadent as society is in the West right now (you only need to see the inner cities on a Saturday night to gauge that), I think this sort of thing - have you noticed it's always nudity and anal sex? - has happened on too many occasions for the army to breezily dismiss it as yet another isolated act. It happened on a pavement out in the street - where was the platoon command? And again, as at Abu Ghraib, you have a bunch of degenerate soldiers with total contempt for the Iraqi population photographing themselves debasing prisoners and actually expressing amusement at their own acts. And again, we have allegations that they were only obeying orders - heads will roll, but meanwhile the Iraqi populace have no illusions: they think we're all barbarians. And on the evidence of these pictures and these enquiries, it becomes that much more difficult to discountenance their impression, doesn't it?

Amaurote
01-19-05, 10:10AM
I love this bit:

A defence lawyer for the three accused yesterday said there had been orders from senior officers for the soldiers to “deal firmly” with the Iraqis because they were accused of stealing food.

Okay, then, case dismissed: deal firmly = simulate anal sex. We've all made that mistake before.

FT (http://news.ft.com/cms/s/5f1f8948-6998-11d9-81e7-00000e2511c8.html)

Diva
01-19-05, 10:33AM
But it's not just the West. Look at Japan for instance. You can buy used girls panties in vending machines. Their anime/manga is a pedophile's dream come true. Tentacles? *shudders*

Reading about the Nanjing Massacre (http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/NanjingMassacre/NM.html) gave me nightmares. I remember stumbling upon a website (I'm not sure if that's the same one) and reading for hours what they did. We've been on the decline for a long time in my eyes. The West may be at a faster pace at times... but it evens out in the end.

That being said... the 'I was just doing what I was told' bullshit doesn't fly with me. As a soldier you take orders, but as a human you are still capable of knowing what is right and wrong. The people who did those acts both as Americans and Brits are in the military for the wrong reasons and should have never been allowed to enlist. War is hell and you are expected to act in a way that is 'uncivilized' when fighting. Once you step away from the battlefield it's a whole different story. Torturing an unarmed person, prisoner of war or not, is barbaric. THAT is how we are seen...

Amaurote
01-19-05, 11:15AM
Nanking was terrible, but I think the distinction is that we are imposing a particular political system on another country: the moral burden is on us, and we just aren't capable of delivering. We are degenerates incapable of self-discipline or respecting the rights and traditions of others. The terrible thing is, the US media barely covered this yesterday, despite it being wall-to-wall in the Arab world: but as clear as it is that it's time to go and Islamicize the Occupation, we'll go on there maintaining the presence, arrogantly ignoring Arab perceptions and imposing our own values, right until the day we run out of blood to pump into the place. So it goes.

Evilpoptart
01-19-05, 01:32PM
I picked the second one, though I thing society as a whole is decadent, if you want to choose that term.

I am dam sure there are a plethra of soldiers from an equal amount of countries raping and doing whatnot.

Do I think we should be held to a higher standard? Yes

Do I think that we can live up to those standards? No

Do I think we should look the other way and let this go on? No

When you break it down, humans are humans, and have been doing this kind of thing for centuries. Its the global media which brings it to the TV screen so everyday people become aware.

All people, be whatever side they are on, or whatever crime they have commited, should be treated with equal rights. While this being a quite noble statement on my part, I know the world doesnt work that way.

All I can do, is continue to voice my opinion, LOUDLY, and create as many center-left people as I can before 06 and 08.

Maybe then, and only then, can something be truly done.

JakeD
01-19-05, 09:08PM
I'd have to agree with 'tart and Diva on the "society is decadent" part, and I picked the second option since our culture is slowly becoming a major influence on a lot of Eastern cultures (fashion trends, some corporations, media).

Since the armed forces are composed of members of our culture that are only representative of their culture (and some aren't necessarily prime examples of it, as you can tell with the morons who did the torture), I don't think it's fair to point the finger at the armed forces and refer to them as decadent just because of a few dozen idiots.

Stupid people exist without boundaries. :goofy: