PLEASE READ & SIGN THIS! [Archive]

LizardKing

11-28-04, 09:40AM

You make one hell of an armchair quarterback, I suppose had you been there you would have waited to see, and not shot until he'd killed one of your buddies. If you don't approve that's fine, but your out of line calling a good Marine a murderer when you have no earthly idea what the fuck your talking about. When was the last time you saw combat? Can you tell me what ROE the Marines were operating under? And finally hows about you worry about what British soldiers are doing? When it comes to our boys you don't get a vote. You're an intelligent guy Am, and usually when you have something to say I'm more than willing to shut up and listen, but your in my lane now, I've spent 18 years in the military, more than 10 of them as a combat infantryman and the past 12 as a front line leader and I can tell you that Marine did EXACTLY what he should have done, he probably saved some lives (including his own). The terrorist scum he was fighting do not hesitate to play dead, fake surrenders, boobytrap bodies, hide and fight from mosques and holy sites, murder and torture civilians, boobytrap childrens toys, etc... This man kills a terrorist whos injured and faking death with weapons in reach and you call him a murder. I think maybe you need to re-examine your priorities.

Oh and Bass, thanks for posting that, I signed it last week but it's a great cause and should be brought to everyones attention.

Amaurote

11-28-04, 09:58AM

I respect your patriotism, LK, but let's be clear here: he wasn't "fighting a terrorist", as you suggest - he was shooting an unarmed prisoner in a sleeping-bag in the head at point-blank range. That isn't just an infringement of the rules of war, it's murder. The fact that he was wearing the uniform of a member of the armed forces does not permit him to commit acts of homicide any more than it did William Calley. The vast majority of American soldiers do not behave like Calley or this marine, or the one who shot an unarmed Iraqi in an alleyway on camera the other week - if they did the resistance would be ten times worse than it already is.

As for the folk who are saying that the rules of war should not apply - fine, if that's the way they feel, maybe they should try and repeal them, along with the Geneva Convention: everyone you fight you can classify as a "noncombatant". Even the Nazis didn't have the confidence to reject the Geneva Convention, but I guess that's the price we pay for progress.

PS: Don't think for a minute that we're taking the moral high ground on this one - after thirty years of counter-insurgency in Northern Ireland, we're used to these kinds of atrocities, which is precisely why we hate seeing them - it means your struggle is becoming futile.

LizardKing

11-28-04, 10:51AM

Ok, so this guy wasn't a terrorist? I take it your one of the crowd that prefers the term "Insurgent" or "rebels" like this is some kind of popular uprising, maybe your not aware that the majority of the opposition in Fallujah is foriegn fighters from places like Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia? The Iraqi's by the way, hate these people because they have been torturing and murdering men, women and children since they showed up. They have also been enforcing Sharia at gunpoint throughout the city.

But I digress, first of all, I suggest you go back and watch the video, I'm sure you've seen it as I have, but do me a favor and watch it again. One of the things that you may notice is that the scumbag in question is in no way restrained, he is covered with what appears to be a green blanket. Now what do you think the U.S. Military does with prisoners? Do we leave them in their fighting positions, scattered throughout the building? Or does it make more sense to restrain them, round them up and place them in a holding area under guard? This takes place after they have been searched for weapons or information and had any wounds tended to by our medics. The fact that these guys were still in the building demonstrates that A. The building had not been cleared. And B. The terrorists in question hadn't been secured (this means they hadn't been checked to see if they were alive, armed, wounded etc..). Therefore the Marines were going into a building (a Mosque by the way) that was still hot to check it for holdouts, boobytraps or anything else of interest such as weapons or explosives caches. As far as being unarmed, I couldn't tell based on the video if the man was armed or not because his hands were under the blanket. How hard would it be to hide a grenade or a pistol or even an AK under that? Now, what would you have this Marine do in this situation? Is he supposed to go over to this clown and poke him with a stick and say "Hey! Get up"? Remember that a few days prior another Marine was blown to pieces doing just that. He can't very well leave this guy behind the squad to attack as soon as thier backs are turned (remember, in our video you can't tell how badly or even if this guy is wounded). The only sound tactical decision is to shoot his ass, a dead man can't pull the pin on a grenade detonate an explosive belt once your close enough. This scumbag could have saved his own ass had he done as his buddy did and raised his hand to demonstrate surrender but he did not, that makes him a combatant and fair game. I expect this Marine will get aquitted of all charges (despite our assinine media) and be back at work relatively soon. As for you Am, you should be ashamed of yourself, calling this man a murderer because NBC sez so? Gimmie a break! Whatever happened to due process? Or is that the way you do things in the U.K.? Just let the media decide and forget about the facts? Maybe this guy at least deserves the benifit of the doubt before you convict him?

Bassmama

11-28-04, 11:07AM

Am- you know what? I'm SO FUCKING against this war that for the 3rd time in my life I voted- to try & get rid of the asshole president that involved us in this shit war in the first place, among other things. I was against it when the pols were first talking about it & was one of the few people that were vocal about it- & called 'unpatriotic' because my country's president had his henchmen put out the brainwash that if you didn't AGREE, or dared to SAY that you didn't agree w/going into this war, you were patriotic- and he used the WTC 9/11 tragedy as a reason- and my countrymen followed like the dumb sheep they were, even tho not ONE of the terrorists was connected w/Iraq or was Iraqi.

Now- let me tell you some MORE from MY point of view- I lost CLOSE friends in Viet Nam- one was Garfield Langhorne, who I grew up with from kindergarden through high school when he graduated & was sent there to fight. He died in 1967 after throwing himself on a grenade to save others' lives. He post-humously was awarded the Metal of Valor & President Ronald Reagan spoke about him during his inauguration speech. I had other friends that died, & others that came home terribly different than the way they went in & after they came back, talked in length with them to hear of their experiences. They lost friends due to people- both live & dead- being booby trapped. My closest friend's (for the last 35 years) son was trained as a Green Beret, & while not being specific about the operations he was on, was specific about his training & the reasons behind how they were trained, as much as he could, anyway. So for you (who don't have even as much of a clue as I have) to sit there & judge that this marine was "guilty as hell" is BULLSHIT, plain & simple.

This is war- not a frikking tea party. You weren't there, you don't know the extenuating circumstances, & you don't have any idea about the combat methods being employed nowadays & why things are being done the way they are. At least Lizard King does- from an insider's point of view. So unless god died & put you in charge before that event happened so you could be 'all seeing & all knowing", ... well, I'm with LK on this.

Diva

11-28-04, 11:12AM

Amaurote

11-28-04, 11:13AM

He wasn't only unarmed, LK, as you know perfectly well: he was severely wounded, like the others in the room (one of whom had been allowed to bleed to death in custody, I might add). Even if the marine had shouted to him to demonstrate that he was unarmed - which he did not do, or even attempt to do - he was in no position to comply. What the video shows (and yes, I have seen it, and it makes me angrier and angrier every time) is the murder of an unarmed, dying man. You might justify it on the grounds that it constituted a mercy killing, but self-defence? Jack Bauer had more grounds for killing Nina Myers in last season's 24.

As for the use of the word "insurgent", don't ask me - ask the head of the investigation, Lieutenant Colonel Bob Miller, who used that very term to describe those prisoners the other day. The ex-Ba'athists are a huge part of the resistance, because they had access to arms caches at the formal end of hostilities. And the largest foreign contingent in Iraq isn't the Lebanese, the Iranians, the Saudis or even the Syrians, never forget - it's the Americans, closely followed by the British. Like Colin Powell said: "If you break it, it's your responsibility". That includes moral responsibility for military atrocities, of which this is only the latest, not the last.

PS: BM, "extenuating circumstances" are mitigation, not an excuse for capital crimes. If people think that wearing a military uniform gives them carte blanche to murder unarmed, dying prisoners, well, I think that just shows how far we've fallen.

Bassmama

11-28-04, 11:32AM

I feel for every soldier that has to go through the hell of war. They are under the constant threat of being killed and the stress level is unimaginable. BUT... These soldiers know what the rules of engagement are. I hate that people start flipping the patriot card whenever something like this happens. The soldier is following different orders and should not be judged by the public. I read that petition and just shook my head and clicked it off.

We can say all sorts of things about what that insurgent COULD have been. But in the end the soldier killed an unarmed man with no boobie traps. In the end the soldier did not follow the rules of engagement... the same rules we expect the Iraqis to follow and scream to the heavens when they don't. I don't know what is going to happen to that soldier, but I am sure that they will take in to consideration all the details.

LK, I know this is a tough one for you, but the man should have been rounded up and taken as a prisoner of war when they found him. Just because he was missed doesn't mean he lost his right to that. I don't think that the 'shoot first, ask questions later' rule should be an accepted practice. Hell, I hear about cops who shoot unarmed people and the public screams for justice.

Again, he will be judged and if there is any displinary action deemed it will not be in the public courts and I don't think the public should be judging him.

By the way.... I think it's ironic that people are so quick to judge the iraqi on what he was, but refuse to accept that soldier was anything but innocent.
Diva- I don't think the soldier was "anything but innocent", but I don't think he was "guilty as hell" either. My point is pretty much the same as yours- the public shouldn't be judging this- but I know enough to realize that we don't have ANY clue about the circumstances behind this, events leading up to it, or the mindsets of the soldiers going into this Mosque. I also don't think that soldier & the others with him were a murderous bunch of thugs that just killed that man for shits & giggles, no matter WHAT it looked like on film. I know what it's like to make comments & joke about things to make what I have to deal with easier to deal with so I could continue dealing with it- ask the staff working in the ER or the EMTs that you are in contact with about that. I'm wondering if that's not what took place here, but like I said before, I wasn't there, so I don't KNOW. I DO know enough about pictures & film clips to know that, while they catch a small frame of the story, they don't catch ALL the facts. This soldier should NOT be turned into an 'example'- the one that SHOULD be on trial is GW Bush, IMHO.

BTW- Am was the one that judged initially- not LK- he just answered back.

Amaurote

11-28-04, 12:13PM

Yep, I absolutely accept that, BM: I am judging him, and I also think the public is mentally equipped to morally judge the actions of its army. For the record: those men were captured, searched and disarmed the day before by another group of marines. When the second unit with the NBC cameraman arrived, they asked the privates from the first unit whether they had captured any Iraqis. They immediately assented to this, and when they asked them whether they were armed when they shot them, they shrugged non-committally, as if it was a matter of sublime indifference to them whether they were shooting armed or unarmed terrorists. I find that exchange nearly as shocking as the incident itself.

PS:

62778. ron hammitt RM1(SS) USN RET give that marine a bronze star - kiling animals is not a crime

262772. James B. Shepherd, MSgt. USAF Ret. Good Work Marine!

262526. frank carroll Cpl 1829155 these terrorists are a different breed of animal. they need to be exterminated

262493. Kyron Hall The Marine did what he was supposed to. Keep the dumass left wing reporters out of combat units.

262339. Tracy L. Hanzie God Bless America!

216304. brian stuck this is a war that we are fighting not a movie not all rules of war can be followed. they kill are soilders and releif workers. in my opinion we should just drop a nuke and make a big prision out of it

Bassmama

11-28-04, 04:19PM

Whatever.

Amaurote

11-28-04, 04:33PM

http://www.der-denver-clan.de/images/denver/people/alexis05.jpg

Diva

11-28-04, 05:08PM

PS:

62778. ron hammitt RM1(SS) USN RET give that marine a bronze star - kiling animals is not a crime

262772. James B. Shepherd, MSgt. USAF Ret. Good Work Marine!

262526. frank carroll Cpl 1829155 these terrorists are a different breed of animal. they need to be exterminated

262493. Kyron Hall The Marine did what he was supposed to. Keep the dumass left wing reporters out of combat units.

262339. Tracy L. Hanzie God Bless America!

216304. brian stuck this is a war that we are fighting not a movie not all rules of war can be followed. they kill are soilders and releif workers. in my opinion we should just drop a nuke and make a big prision out of it
This is why I shook my head and clicked off the link. How sad that something someone did to show support was turned into some racist redneck KKK fest. I am embarrassed and saddened by the statements on there. Those soldiers are not there to exterminate shit. They are there representing our country. I just hope people don't read that hateful thing and think that it represents the people of our country.

whitecrow

11-28-04, 06:45PM

I just hope people don't read that hateful thing and think that it represents the people of our country.
Big problem - a lot of them DO. And it's really hurting America.

Amaurote

11-28-04, 06:45PM

Yes, although to be fair there are some comments in there from other nations which are equally - if not more - virulent. But getting back to the army-as-special-case concept, there's a clear contradiction here: on the one hand Bassmama is stating that the general public is not equipped to judge the merits of this case; on the other hand, she is inviting us - ordinary members of the general public - to sign a petition calling for the military investigation of the case to be dropped. Now, you can argue the first or you can argue the second, but can you really argue for both points simultaneously?

LizardKing

11-28-04, 08:41PM

Well Am, It's obvious that you have some kind of problem with the U.S. military, maybe it's a political thing, maybe you just hate soldiers, I don't know. What I do know is that you are full of shit when it comes to military operations, yet that doesn't seem to even slow you down when it comes to making accusations. As for what I know "perfectly well" it's that the Iraqi was under a blanket and trying to play dead. He was not a prisoner, he had not been searched and his physical condition was unknown. I know this because I am a soldier and we are trained to handle captives in a very specific way, they are NEVER just left in a building for the next guys to pick up. They are NEVER left unsecured, unsearched, or unguarded. The wounded are not left untreated unless there is no other option. This is basic soldiering as well as common sense. If those Iraqi's were prisoners the soldiers wouldn't have been standing at a ready position (ie. guns up and ready to fire), there would have been no need. Anyway, I realize you are going to badmouth this kid regardless of what I say, so go ahead, I hope it makes you feel brave to talk shit about a scared kid stuck in a place not of his choosing who's doing his job and trying to stay alive. As for me, I've said my piece and will not waste anymore of my time trying to explain something you just don't get.

And Diva, that Iraqi should NOT have been "rounded up and taken as a prisoner of war", that status is reserved for enemy soldiers who have surrendered or who no longer have the ability and means to resist. This man was in a situation of his own making (fighting from a mosque) and as for bieng able to resist, it turns out he probably wasn't able to, but the marine didn't know that, all he knew was that the guy was breathing and appeared to be playing dead. That makes him a threat. the fact that he couldnt see his hands or what was under the blanket adds the possibility of hidden explosives or other weapons. So he played it safe and shot him rather than risk his own life or that of his squadmates. It was solid thinking in a very dangerous situation and yeah, I think he probably earned a commendation for it. Does this make me a racist KKK redneck? Or could it be possible that I know of which I speak, understand the situation the Marine was in and respect him for doing the job he was trained to do? Also I think you are confusing the rules of engagement with the Geneva convention, ROE is dictated by the higher headquarters and depends on the situation, for example in the Balkans it was common for the ROE to state that soldiers could not fire unless fired upon. These rules are subject to change as a situation develops and are not usually made available to the public. The legal case this Marine is facing will certainly center around ROE.

Diva

11-28-04, 09:36PM

And Diva, that Iraqi should NOT have been "rounded up and taken as a prisoner of war", that status is reserved for enemy soldiers who have surrendered or who no longer have the ability and means to resist. This man was in a situation of his own making (fighting from a mosque) and as for bieng able to resist, it turns out he probably wasn't able to, but the marine didn't know that, all he knew was that the guy was breathing and appeared to be playing dead.Like I said, he should have been taken as a prisoner of war. LK, I am not here to judge that soldier, so don't treat me like the enemy. We can discuss the situation and what usually happens til the cows come home... the bottom line is that we weren't there and can only work with what information is given to us. That is why I hate that this is being tried by the media, both for and against.

It was solid thinking in a very dangerous situation and yeah, I think he probably earned a commendation for it. Does this make me a racist KKK redneck? Or could it be possible that I know of which I speak, understand the situation the Marine was in and respect him for doing the job he was trained to do?
My remarks about them being racist kk rednecks is directed to the people who signed the petition with the remarks that were quoted. I don't believe all people are in that category by simply signing that petition and never said so. I really hate feeling like I'm going to regret asking this... but do you label them as animals? By them I mean every single person who is an Iraqi. Do you think we should nuke the place and kill every single person there? Do you think that because individuals did terrorist acts their whole nationality should be labelled as terrorists?

Also I think you are confusing the rules of engagement with the Geneva convention, ROE is dictated by the higher headquarters and depends on the situation, for example in the Balkans it was common for the ROE to state that soldiers could not fire unless fired upon. These rules are subject to change as a situation develops and are not usually made available to the public. The legal case this Marine is facing will certainly center around ROE.
No, I am talking about ROE. That is why I said the soldiers know what the rules of engagement are... meaning the public does not. That is why I don't think this can or should be tried by the public and I NEVER think that it should be tried by the media.

I have never been to war, but it does not mean I cannot have an informed opinion even if it is different than yours. One of my pet peeves is when people throw that 'unless you've been there' comment to me. I love our country and support our soldiers, but it does not mean that they are without errors. We're all human. This error centers around someone shooting an unarmed man. We can throw what he 'might' have had under that blanket around for hours... but the bottom line is that the soldier didn't check. Do I think he is a murderer? No. If we label him that than we have to label everyone that. People die in war. Those men weren't in there to pray. I have faith that he will be judged accordingly.

LizardKing

11-28-04, 10:30PM

Ok, last shot and then I'm goin' to bed.
1st point - Despite the Iraqi turning out to be unarmed and injured, he was covered with a blanket and his hands were concealed. This left the Marine with no choice but to assume the worst and engage. approaching to try to check under the blanket could have resulted in death or injury. This is not second guessing or speculation as to what may or may not have been under the blanket, it's simply sound tactics and soldiers are trained to think this way in combat. I would also add that there really is no other safe way to handle this situation without endangering the squad or comprimising the mission, if there is I would love to hear it.

2nd point - Ahh noos yoo aint da en'my, yoos mah frien!!! * LK licks the side of Divas face...

3rd point - I consider the terrorists who we are fighting in Iraq to be less than animals, they are cowards with no honor, no morals and no mercy. These creatures have demonstrated this time and again through atrocities commited against the Iraqi people, against civilian non-combatants and against coalition forces. These are people who believe that if you do not worship the same god they do in the fashion they say is right, then you are unclean and must die. They enforce these beliefs at gunpoint on thier own people. These are the animals who believe that ritual castration of women and girls, often by force, is right and proper. These are the filth that if givin the chance would destroy everything that is good in the world. They are NOT the Iraqi people, who for the most part want to be left alone to rebuild. Who believe in God, and believe that He is kind and good. Who often but not always understand that the Americans and others are fighting FOR them, not against them as so many would like us to believe. These are simple people, and givin the chance, they will do well and have much to offer the world. As for nukes, lets save 'em for those who REALLY deserve it - the French.

JakeD

11-28-04, 10:36PM

As for nukes, lets save 'em for those who REALLY deserve it - the French.

Yeah, those horse-eating, wine-sipping, funny-smelling bastards MUST GO DOWN!

Except for the chicks, of course.
Well, they can go down, but not in the battlefield sense of the word, if ya know what I'm sayin'...*chuckles lecherously*
*continues to chuckle lecherously*
*won't fucking stop chuckling lecherously*
*is suddenly splashed with a plastic tumbler full of ice-cold water and then promptly beaned in the face with the tumbler after Diva reads what he typed*

...shit.
Honey? Come ba...where are you going? Is that a real gun? I....AAAGH!!!

Diva

11-28-04, 10:38PM

.... You know they don't shave their pits. :rude:

JakeD

11-28-04, 10:38PM

.... You know they don't shave their pits. :rude:

That's all fine and good, I'll just pretend I'm in high school football again.

Diva

11-28-04, 10:39PM

:|

You are soooo going to sleep on the couch tonight. Pig.

LizardKing

11-28-04, 10:42PM

OMG! I sooo needed that.

* LK Stops giggling, picks himself up off the floor, and decides he needs to change his now-wet pants.

Amaurote

11-29-04, 03:55AM

He was not a prisoner, he had not been searched and his physical condition was unknown.

LK, I'm sorry, but you're simply demonstrating wilful ignorance now. Check the reports on CNN, the BBC and every other news outlet in existence for that matter. He was a prisoner, had been searched (they found rocket-propelled grenade-launchers and AK-47s the day before and immediately disarmed them) and was found to be seriously injured. After treating them the first detachment left the injured who weren't in a position to harm anyone, deployed sentries and then pressed on with the attack. The second unit showed up a day later and all hell broke loose. The fact that you and BM seem to interpret dissent on this topic as some kind of outrageous personal attack on yourselves is really pretty sad, but did you seriously look at that clip and see it as uncontroversial? What if it had been an unarmed American getting shot by an Iraqi, would that have been equally uncontroversial? You really are an Empire now, maybe we should hold a minute's silence out of respect for the Republic.

As for the military - I have no problem with the average soldier, but I think the level of political education is pitiful, and I find the special pleading for acts of atrocities utterly nauseating, particularly when it's joined to the semi-fascist dehumanization of the enemy as "vermin", "animals", "scum" and so on. The same thing is happening over here: kids as young as 17 with a reading age of about 7 are being fast-tracked from the recruiting offices into the frontline without a clue about the country they're deployed to, or why they're there. And it doesn't matter how many times you say it, the terrorists in Iraq are not a binary, homogenous group - there are secular nationalists there, just as there are Wahabbists, Islamists and ex-Ba'athists. Some of them are evil as fuck; some of them just want their country free of foreign troops. Yes, it's xenophobic, but...Americans are sometimes xenophobic, too. The French have just repudiated 80% of Iraq's debt to them in response to an American request, but you'd never guess it from the headlines, would you?

Ice Man

11-29-04, 05:36AM

A part of me is saying just stay out of this and yet, as a MARINE myself I can not. I am about to express my take on the FACTS here in this case.

An enemy person is lying under a blanket with weapon within reach. A Marine squad (team) enters the room which happens to be an area where enemy personnel have been firing from. With adrenelin flowing and following orders given to clear the area, most likely, a Marine shot an someone whom he believed to be a threat.

Now for the Anti-Americans, I will say this. Until you walk a mile in our shoes, you have no right to judge. War is HELL and the other side isn't playing fair. But yet, I see no petitions to stop them from the terrorist acts that are occuring. Oh, wait Amourote stated that they are not terrorist. If this is so, what do you call people killing civilians and using war tactics that are clearly against those described in the geneva convention.

You have the rights to your opinions, all of you and I guess you know whom I will be standing beside. Right or wrong, this situation is putting hard differences between members.

I am a Marine.
There are many like me,
yet I am one.
Sent to protect those
who can't protect themselves,
I will do my duty
and fight like Hell.

As you can see I am not much of a writer but, this came forth from my fingers to burn the image of loyalty and faithfulness to my GOD, COUNTRY and CORPS.

Flaming will not be responded to.

Amaurote

11-29-04, 05:58AM

Oh, wait Amourote stated that they are not terrorist.

I did? When was that, then?

A Marine squad (team) enters the room which happens to be an area where enemy personnel have been firing from.

24 hours after those enemy personnel were taken prisoner and disarmed by another Marine squad - who left a picket outside to tell them exactly how many injured, unarmed people there were inside.

Bassmama

11-29-04, 07:01AM

Am- FIRST of all- read the quote at the bottom of every one of my posts. If you don't understand this, PM me & I'll explain it to you.

Second- you have a right to your opinion, even though I personally think you're FOS on this subject. State your opinion & be done with it.

Third- If you didn't want to sign the petition, then don't, but don't try to MAKE us think like you do- just because you think you're right. Sign it or don't- I don't care.

Fourth- Since WHEN are the accounts published by the press accurate OR true? I was a member, albiet for only a short time- mostly because the lies, inaccuracies & slanted accounts printed by a majority of them pissed me off too much. Personally, I don't like the idea that this young man is being tried in the press & people who don't have a CLUE of how OUR military functions is judging him as "Guilty"- maybe that's how your legal system works, but here in the US, we believe in "Innocent until proven guilty" BTW- your judges wear white powdered wigs still, don't they?

Fifth- just because a person signs a petition & is an asshole with their comments does NOT mean that everyone OR the petition goes along with those asshole comments. If the rest of the world equates all Americans with those assholes' comments, then they are the BIGGER assholes. Personally, I think most English men are pompous assholes with a STRONG tendancy towards homosexuality & 'buggering' little children of both sexes, but that doesn't mean that it's true OR that it's every English man- but that's mainly because I was sexually abused for YEARS by an English man- from the age of 3.

Sixth- Like I said before- were you there? Do you know ALL the circumstances- including the ones leading up to what happened? Did any of your "media reports" happen to mention that the marine had been shot in the face within a few days previously by doing just what you are convicting him (through the press accounts) for NOT doing- & had just come back (before he was supposed to) from recovering from his wounds? He went up to an "insurgent" to see if the man was wounded & almost got killed for his efforts.

Now- I'm done with this subject. If you want to keep on, PM me. I didn't want to start a war when I posted this, but it seems to have turned into one. I just thought it was wrong to convict a young man that's fighting for this country on press accounts. I'm going to wait until the dust settles & the true account is revealed before copping an attitude about what happened from media- and am keeping in mind that what I or you think won't matter a bit anyway- the military court is the only on that should or should not try this young man, NOT the world court of the media.

Amaurote

11-29-04, 07:26AM

All right, Bass (conflations aside), to begin with, how am I trying to "make you think like I do" simply by expressing dissent? Dissent is what it is, disagreement with a premise. If you don't have the self-confidence to accept that, perhaps an internet forum is not the best place for you to air your opinions.

Secondly, if you're seriously saying that every account in the press is untrue, I beg to differ. This isn't just what a few liberal dailies are saying in Europe, this is global. The NBC reporter was actually as pliable as the military could ask, which is why he's an embed - he reported the footage in the genuine belief that it was uncontroversial.

Thirdly, and most importantly, if you're willing to wait for the court's objective findings, why are you asking us to sign a petition calling for the investigation to be dropped? You aren't saying "Innocent until Proven Guilty", you're effectively saying "Innocent - Case Dismissed."

Fourthly, I don't care if you're an Anglophobe. That is your problem. I'm sorry you were sexually abused, that is horrible, but I work with people who were sexually abused for long stretches of their life (including some of your Englsh paedophiles, I might add) and they don't use it as some kind of convenient excuse for hating entire categories of people. As for my supposed pomposity, I ask everyone to take a look at your and my responses earlier in this thread and judge for themselves as to which they think were peevish and which were simply modest, rational objections. I don't agree with you. If that makes me pompous, so be it. I am not your patsy, I have my own views on things.

Lastly, no, I wasn't there, and nor were you or LizardKing. That is why I am happy for the investigation to continue, and why I will not be signing the petition which calls for it to be closed. I'm not going to PM you this time, I'm afraid, I come to forums to exchange ideas, not personal insults. I'm not knocking you, you have a perfect right to behave like this, but I'm afraid you have a habit of emotionally misinterpreting my posts and I'm simply not prepared to engage with that level of pointless acrimony, which is now verging on the most virulent kind of racism on your part. Sorry, but I think we'd just better stay out of each other's way from now on.

Ice Man

11-29-04, 07:48AM

I respect your patriotism, LK, but let's be clear here: he wasn't "fighting a terrorist", as you suggest...

I believe this is the answer that which you seek.

And I don't give a shit if it's 36 or 72 hours later, if someone is shooting at me from a building, when I enter that building it will be with forceful intent to clear it. (hypothetically speaking) No second chances. They didn't give my buddy one.

I think just maybe that the subject has gotten so heated that you fail to understand what Bass is saying Am.

The petition is about stopping the media from convicting him. You know as well as I do that the media influences opinions of the general population. Why the hell do you think that Bush got re-elected. Pro-Bush propoganda. The same thing is happening here but with negative effects on the public.

We are not given all of the "FACTS" at once and must piece the information together to achieve an opinion. If you solely place your opinion on the video, then you are not the person whom I thought you were. I however do feel that he is not guilty based on my experiences and the facts provided me around the incident. However, it is not for me to "JUDGE". A Court Martial hearing will be held and he will be judged there.

Let the freaking thing go.

All I can say is that if it were me, none of them would have been taken alive after I tried to help one and he shot me. All after that would die. I guess it's a good thing that I am here and not there.

Diva

11-29-04, 07:53AM

Bassmama, he wasn't trying to make us think like he does. This is a discussion thread and he was stating his opinion. Nothing more and nothing less. While most American media only reports half of the story, I stop short of not believing any of it. Instead, I will wait until more is learned. Am is right about the innocent until proven guilty. If he is innocent then the case will be dismissed. The bottom line is that we werent there and should not judge him period.

Also, the comment about English men was uncalled for and flaming. I'll talk to you more in private about this.

Diva

11-29-04, 08:17AM

The petition is about stopping the media from convicting him. You know as well as I do that the media influences opinions of the general population. Why the hell do you think that Bush got re-elected. Pro-Bush propoganda. The same thing is happening here but with negative effects on the public.
Ummmm.... no. Did you read the whole petition?

It is my opinion that NOTHING should happen to this American Marine. He should be returned to his unit or be given an honorable discharge. We don't need our young men and women taking an extra second to decide if its right to shoot an enemy terrorist when that could mean that one of our soldiers could lose their life. The lives of our soldiers should be the single most important factor in this war against terrorism. The rights of terrorists can come second.
Read the last paragraph. This petition is NOT to stop the media, it is to get the case dismissed or give him an honorable discharge... which by the way WONT happen without a hearing. That petition is already giving the man a sentence. Let him have a chace to give his defense before making ANY decision.

Amaurote

11-29-04, 08:18AM

I believe this is the answer that which you seek.

Which was actually just a rejection of LK's idea that this was an active combat situation, not the term "terrorist", as the context makes absolutely clear: there was no "fighting" at all - the fighting had occurred the day before. I used the term "terrorist" to describe him on that very same page, in addition to "insurgent" earlier, which is also the description used by the investigating officer in this case.

The petition is about stopping the media from convicting him

No it isn't, Ice Man - it dismisses his actions as excuses, praises him as a patriot and calls not only for the charges to be dropped, but for him to be released back to his unit. In his defence, there is some mitigation here in the form of the injury he apparently suffered (in which case his CO should be court-martialled for corporate manslaughter), but the act itself was criminal. The signatories almost unanimously call for him to be awarded a medal. I think Eisenhower was right about the psychological and political dangers of militarism, and I think we're finally seeing the chickens coming home to roost. To make matters worse,the Arab media has been showing 24-hour back-to-back footage of the Margaret Hassan murder and the summary shooting of the terrorist in the mosque. In their eyes, the two acts are morally equivalent.

Bassmama

11-29-04, 09:34AM

Am- I apologize- you're right & I'm wrong. Not only did I not write what I was trying to the way I was thinking it, I put it in a way that was very nasty & hurtful- I just re-read it after Diva PMd me. I do NOT fault a whole nation of people for the sins of one, but it sure as hell sounded that way. Please accept my apologies for that. I was trying to make the point that to do so was, in fact, wrong- as would judging all of the US citizens that signed the petition by the comments made by assholes that signed the petition. That started out that way, but somehow stopped short of the point. You're right, also, in that my emotions interfered, which I also apologize for. Something else I still have to work on.

I did read the petition, but did not get the point of the last paragraph, obviously. I am NOT for dropping what happened without any investigation, but I also am not into castigating this soldier in the media, which seems to be what's happening.

Am- I also am not saying that the media always lies, but what I was & am saying is that it cannot always tell the whole story no matter HOW many times it runs the film clips- things are not always what they seem to be, even on film. For this situation to be settled will take an investigation & judgement by the military courts, not by any of us.

Again- I apologize for offending you.

SUE

Ice Man

11-29-04, 10:42AM

Okay, somehow I missed that.

However, in combat "fighting" is not limited to the actual exchange of gunfire and explosives. This is the point that we were trying to convey. It is a much larger definition that simply saying the fighting was over the day before. If the area was not secured (meaning - no enemy present) then the "fighting" was not over. That is my point. They were and still are considered to be in a hostile environment in a combat status. Again, another well versed point.

I refuse to get emotional over the topic. There are very few subject matters that I am passionate about but all seem to pop up here quite frequently.

The matter should be investigated. The media should drop the coverage until there is a verdict. However, based on what I know about the matter, He is innocent. And yet it doesn't matter what I think now does it.

Amaurote

11-29-04, 11:21AM

No offence taken, Bass - and incidentally, Diva has just alerted me to the fact that "BM" was being used to insult you some months previously, which came as a complete surprise to me: I just conflate to abbreviations to save time, I genuinely had no idea. I'm not necessarily saying that I think an emotional approach to forums is wrong, by the way, I was just clarifying the fact that I don't have one: if anyone is offended by a political point that I'm making, please bear in mind that I'm not actually frothing at the mouth when I'm making it: the internet is just ideas on a page to me, and I come here to read diverse views and swap banter/ideas, although I freely admit that that wasn't always the case in the past. I was actually more taken aback by the pomposity charge than the suggestion of child molestation, to be honest, simply because it's the polar opposite of the way I actually am, i.e. a pasty-faced northern proley geek from a rural backwater roughly corresponding to Kansas. Coming from ultra-sophisticated, world-weary New York you're actually far more metropolitan than I am.

Ice Man: I take your point, but while the intelligence on the ground is always sketchy, the marines who provided it were just outside. They knew how many injured men were in the building and that they had been disarmed. I agree with you and Bass that we should wait on events, but like you I think the facts are generally known: based on those facts (not just the report, but the information which was gleaned from the military and the reports after the event) I think he's prima facie guilty, but that the injury to his face may allow him to legitimately plead mitigation, or at least transfer part of the blame to his superiors for not re-assigning him the day before. He isn't another Calley (there's no evidence of premeditation), but nor was he simply another marine doing his job.

And for the record - precisely the same thing appears to be happening to the British soldiers based at Camp Dogwood, who have lost comrades over the last few weeks. The same mistake was made in Northern Ireland in the late 60s, when regiments of Scottish Presbyterians were billetted next to streets filled with Catholics - who originally welcomed them, just as the marines were welcomed by the Iraqis last year. Discipline rapidly degenerated as the Provos campaign escalated, public opinion was alienated and the political situation became completely untenable in parts of Belfast as a result. History is repeating itself.

Amaurote

11-29-04, 11:22AM

Steve Bell's latest (warning, controversial):

Ice Man

11-29-04, 11:54AM

Who got my goat? Give it back.

entipy

11-29-04, 01:28PM

Media and war do not good bedfellows make.

:)

Diva

11-29-04, 01:40PM

I can top that.... Try wearing a fur coat into a PETA office while eating a steak sub.

entipy

11-29-04, 01:48PM

ROFLMAO!! That is funny. I would love to see pictures of that.

Moreover, I'd hate to eat that sandwich after it got coated in red paint. :p

Bassmama

11-29-04, 02:55PM

Hey, Am- it wasn't used to insult me- I just realized after someone used it that the initials for my name- BM- is also short for 'bowel movement'. Usually I shrug & say 'that figures', but sometimes it bugs me, so that's why I put 'just call me Bass' at the bottom. Or you can call me Sue. Just don't call me late for dinner...

Wait- you mean you AREN'T ALL POMPOUS???? NO SHIT! (no BM?) And I have a news flash for ya- I grew up on a farm about 60 miles from NY City & now live in farm country about 175 miles north of NYC & have as little as possible to do with ANY city. Funny misconceptions we have about things, huh? I tell people around here that I'm from Long Island & they think that it's ALL city down there. Nope- I've milked cows, run farm businesses, (pick-your-own-strawberries), grown things, driven trucks & tractors, helped deliver a calf that was too big for the mother to pass on her own, seen animals butchered for food, & even readied some roosters for sunday dinner from start to finish, if you know what I mean. So I don't know how sophistocated I am. (Not very most of the time- I could make a dockworker blush sometimes)

And Ice Man- I got your damn goat- I took him to the vet to get him castrated. Ever hear the phrase "dirty old goat"? It was made up for a reason- not much makes me blush, but the stupid billy goat I used to have could get me to blush regularly. I got him castrated a week after I got him. He was DISGUSTING!

Sterling

11-29-04, 07:26PM

So, let me get this straight:

BM is asking us to sign a petition. Am looks at the reported facts, and comes to the conclusion that it seems like the Marine probably is guilty as charged. That's a perfectly reasonable inference given the available data. Perhaps open to some debate, but not an entirely irrational point of view.

Then, Am gets flamed by all and sundry for daring to suggest that the Marine might be guilty. In particular, he gets told that he doesn't know what he's talking about, wasn't there, doesn't know the rules of engagement, etc. etc.

Well, fuck me, you can't have it both ways. Either it's legitmate for us armchair generals to have an opinion on the case or it's not. If it is, then what exactly is everyone's problem with Am's analysis? If it isn't then why are we qualified to sign the petition?

Ice Man

11-30-04, 07:15AM

Wait- you mean you AREN'T ALL POMPOUS???? NO SHIT! (no BM?) And I have a news flash for ya- I grew up on a farm about 60 miles from NY City & now live in farm country about 175 miles north of NYC & have as little as possible to do with ANY city. Funny misconceptions we have about things, huh? I tell people around here that I'm from Long Island & they think that it's ALL city down there. Nope- I've milked cows, run farm businesses, (pick-your-own-strawberries), grown things, driven trucks & tractors, helped deliver a calf that was too big for the mother to pass on her own, seen animals butchered for food, & even readied some roosters for sunday dinner from start to finish, if you know what I mean. So I don't know how sophistocated I am. (Not very most of the time- I could make a dockworker blush sometimes)

I think that I am in love........yee haawwwww!!!