View Full Version : Wow
Hunter Killer
11-08-04, 06:07PM
Okay, I until recently thought that our (American) country was fair and just and equal. And it is, compared with the rest of the world (mostly).
Notice I said Better than most, not good. Corrupt politicians buying all kinda unfair shit (BUSHCoughBUSH) is a common sight, yet noone does a single thing about it because they're most likely cooerced as well.
But what REALLY bakes my cake is the Gay rights issue.
The denying of Gay Marriage Rights boils down, at it's simplest level, to the denying of citizens of rights because of religious beliefs (which I do belive is illegal)
People claim god doesn't like it at all. (put most mildly) I beg to differ; why would He let people be born into it if He didn't like it? Homosexuality is hereditary, to I belive. He's a hipocryte, in essense.
If that's what's waiting for me in Heaven, I think I'll check into hell with Osama, Regan, Mussolini, and Hitler. At least everyone's equal there (abeit if it's only equal sufforing)
Well, if the "Civil Unions" Gay ppl can get now (in some states; others that's not even granted) have the same rights as Marriage, the same benefits and shit, then that's okay. I don't mind a little name whoring; harmless it is. But they do not.
Belive me, I'm no gay person, I just belive that Gay people should be allowed to do whatever they see fit (short of crimes of stuff of the like)
That's what my conscience says. Didn't He create our feelings of right/wrong? Then why do I disagree with Him?
Oh, and about women. People like Clair McCaskill (SP?) and such, tough women, people hate them. Women should be nice, smiles, laid back, like our First Lady. At least that's the opinion of the majority of America.
There, my rant is over.
* Hunter Killer grabs drink and sits down.
You know what? I totally agree. Gays do absolutely NOTHING to deserve this sort of treatment, yet people act like homosexuality is a direct threat to them. It sickens me. All they ask for is just common union between themselves and the person that they care for, and can't even get that.
They're not asking for the right to fuck in the streets, they're not asking for the right to form some wacky religion and convert all our kids to homosexuality....and the idea that people treat it as such makes me nauseous. My old boss and one of my best friends...was gay. His boyfriend and he were really fun guys and I liked hanging out with them and BSing with them.
Stopping gays from marrying isn't going to stop people from being gay. It's just going to stop them from giving a fuck about you if you're closed-minded enough to be against it. We live in a constantly changing culture, where the boundaries of love are redefined every day. How dare a group of people think that they could take it upon themselves to cage a human emotion and ultimately define what love is. THAT'S immorality for you.
Hear hear!!!
If that's what's waiting for me in Heaven, I think I'll check into hell with Osama, Regan, Mussolini, and Hitler. At least everyone's equal there (abeit if it's only equal sufforing)
Those aren't your only two options, either, ya know? ;)
http://www.religioustolerance.org/var_rel.htm
* Ice Man tip toes from room hoping no one saw him. This could really get ugly if you know what I mean.......... Tip.....toe......tip.......toe
Hunter Killer
11-10-04, 06:15AM
* Ice Man tip toes from room hoping no one saw him. This could really get ugly if you know what I mean.......... Tip.....toe......tip.......toe
* Hunter Killer follows Ice Man, foaming at mouth and with Machine Gun
XD
MeLsWeEtiE
11-12-04, 08:48PM
Well, I do have to say, I am against gay marriage. I voted against it. I don't agree with homosexuality and I don't believe the idea is right. Yes, it has been drilled in my head through my religious beliefs as well as living in the Bible Belt, but ironically enough, I don't have anything against gay people. Ben's aunt is gay. We all hang out with her and her girlfriend of many years. They are great people. I just don't believe a woman being with a woman, or a man being with a man is "right." However, I don't really have a place to judge. Just my little 2 cents with absolutely nothing to back my opinion.
* MeLsWeEtiE runs far, far away, hides...and finds Osama Bin Laden.
DIE MOTHA FUCKA!!!!! *ties his testicles in a knot*
Sorry, I have no sense tonight.
Bassmama
11-13-04, 08:22AM
I'm puzzled, Mel- you hang out with Ben's aunt & her gfriend, they've been together for years,- do you think they love each other? Isn't THAT what marriage should be based on? Love? Honesty? Commitment?
And I thought that religion was based on the concept of 'love' & 'do unto others..' etc. Isn't part of love taking care of & cherishing another PERSON? With our (heteros') record of failed marriages, who are we to judge? What about 'judge not lest ye be judged'?
I don't care WHAT people do in the privacy of their homes- they have as much right to do it (as long as it is consenting adults) as anyone else. Do you want someone coming into YOUR life & telling YOU what's right or wrong by THEIR standards? That's communism- and, BTW- that's what's happening in this country since GW 'took over'. IOW- you have every right to be against doing something in your own life, but noone has the right to tell anyone else that THEY can't. Don't you realize that allowing one group to tell others that they can't do something opens you up to be told that you can't do something?
My cousin is 6 years older than me, has been with his partner for more than 30 years, yet they aren't allowed to have the rights that the rest of us do? Just because they love each other? Where's THAT at? And his partner is WONDERFUL!
Anyway, JMHO.
Mel--judge not lest ye be judged, I believe was what Christ said. Of course, he was a Jew and not a proper Christian, so proper Christians, of course, know what's right and wrong regardless of his obviously worthless opinions.
* Lilith shrugs
I don't believe anyone has the right to intrude into others' private lives as long as no crimes are being committed. Or would you label homosexuality a crime and/or danger to society?
who are we to judge? What about 'judge not lest ye be judged'? [...] Mel--judge not lest ye be judged Mel said:
However, I don't really have a place to judge. ===========
Mel, I'm not going to attack your opinion. It is yours, after all. :)
I would like to ask you a couple of questions, though.
1) Are you against inter-racial marriages? (This would include any combination of the following: asian/black/hispanic/caucasian/native american)
2) If so, would you agree to back legislation preventing these folks from marrying just because you disagree with it?
* Ice Man thinks that as long as they are not the same sex, who the hell cares.
* Ice Man also thinks that this is a good time to run and hide far, far away and finds WMD. "So this is where they hid them." Hey, Mel. What are you doing here?
* entipy wonders why Ice Man always throws out a tidbit in these conversations and then runs
If you wanna discuss it, put on your gloves and stick around. :p
whitecrow
11-15-04, 02:41PM
* Ice Man thinks that as long as they are not the same sex, who the hell cares. You know you're my bro, Icey - but I'm going to respectfully disagree with you here. I'm sure you're used to it.
MeLsWeEtiE
11-15-04, 07:17PM
People marrying between different races doesn't bother me, as long as it's a man and a woman. It goes against everything I've ever been taught and everything I've ever believed in, for a person to be with their own sex. However, I don't feel strong enough about this issue to really change my mind. I just don't see homosexuality as being natural. That's all. I agree to disagree.
Marsbert
11-15-04, 07:37PM
I personally think, that being in America, the "Land of the Free" where we always preach about the rights we have that other countries don't, then homosexuals should be able to get married. And I felt like that even before I started going to a college where there's 50% gays and lesbians on campus.
And that's why I despise Bush
MeLsWeEtiE
11-15-04, 07:44PM
That is a good point. I can see where you are coming from on that.
Well, much the same as Mel here. It is a personal choice to disagree with same sex marriages. I believe that it was not in the natural design of things. It doesn't make since and how can a species survive with such nonsense going on. I am not a nature freak but, I have never seen two male bears, dogs, cats, deer, fish or any other "animal" mating except for the human species. My point of view goes entirely on the natural order of creating life. In my eyes, it is wrong and I will not support it. I agree to disagree with the lot of you that feel differently. Sure there are birth "DEFECTS" that give people multiple tools to work with. There is always a predominate hormone present that renders a sexual gender. Gays are not born, they are created either by environment, culture or hormonal imbalance. It mostly boils down to choice. That is my view. And before you start climbing down my throat, you should know this. I cannot say that I have close friends that are gay but, I do have people in my life that I consider friends who have chosen this "lifestyle". Many of my views comes from in depth conversations with them on the subject while trying to understand why anyone would want to be this way. I don't judge anyone for living this lifestyle however, I don't condone it either. My friends accept this in me and know that I am here when they need me.
I have always been raised to be the "manly" man. I was also raised to be sensitive to other people's needs in respect to women. I am proud of who I am.
Oh, I run from the ladies entipy because I don't like being hit by a girl because it isn't proper to hit her back.
Actually, homosexuality in the wild is common. The only difference is that they are not banished or treated inferior. I also linked a couple of scientific reports in my news links proving that gays ARE born that way. I have to find them considering you obviously didn't see them.
Evilpoptart
11-16-04, 09:14AM
She's right you know.........
Yes, she is.
And enty--if Mel voted against permitting someone to marry someone else on the basis of sexual orientation, then she is most definitely passing judgement--and more. Saying that she isn't won't change the fact that her actions speak for themselves.
My point in asking the question I asked to Mel was that, to me, there is no difference. Some people feel just as strongly about interracial marriages as you do about intergender marriages. Does that mean they should be outlawed, too? Because there are so many people who don't believe in it? I was trying to get a "step into their shoes" viewpoint there.
I have nothing against anyone disagreeing with homosexuality. That is certainly a personal choice and opinion. However, I have a big problem with creating legislation to outlaw marriage between consenting adults. That is not the government's business, period, and it is legislation based on faithway which is not how things should be in this country. That is where the problem comes in, and frankly, I don't see why people have such a hard time seeing that just because you don't agree with something doesn't mean you have to OUTLAW it for everyone else.
Ice - Diva is right. There have been documented cases of same-sex interaction in many ways in the wild. It IS a "natural" thing. Haven't you ever seen a male dog humping another male dog? I have! Tons of times. I agree that same-sex coupling is unnatural in regards to species propagation. However, in our modern world, there is no current danger of "dying out," and there are plenty of children who need good homes. To me, that is not a valid argument for outlawing same-sex marriages.
Lil - True.
Bassmama
11-16-04, 12:17PM
I grew up in a home where my father believed: (and I'll use HIS words- NOT MINE!)
Gays were 'queers' & WRONG!
A white and a '******', 'chink', or any OTHER race getting together were WRONG!
We were White Anglo Saxon Protestant- and getting 'hooked up' with a 'dumb polack', 'whop', 'sheeny jew', or anything else BUT another WASP was a HORRIBLE THING and unforgivable.
Women were inferior- except for my mother.
Divorced women were shameful- & sinful!
Kids born to unmarried parents were 'little bastards'
If you weren't married & had sex with anyone, you were going to hell!
There's more- MUCH more- but he was the most miserable, judgemental, hate filled, narrow minded, controlling moron I EVER knew- and I had to grow up in HIS house.
He was Archie Bunker, without being funny. Because of him, I learned tolerance of other people & their lifestyles, beliefs, backgrounds, skin colors, languages, sexual preferances, & circumstances. I learned that thinking someone else is 'wrong' for doing what makes THEM happy is trying to control them & an unfair judgement- and I don't HAVE to like it or want to ever do it myself. 'Taint my business anyway, any more than it's anyone else's business how I want to live MY life. Thinking someone is 'wrong' IS a judgement.Controlling them because of narrow mindedness is a lot MORE 'wrong'.
Anyway- I'll get off the soapbox.
Thinking someone is 'wrong' IS a judgement.Controlling them because of narrow mindedness is a lot MORE 'wrong'.
You are absolutely correct.
Main Entry: judg·ment
Variant(s): or judge·ment /'j&j-m&nt/
Function: noun
1 a : a formal utterance of an authoritative opinion b : an opinion so pronounced
2 a : a formal decision given by a court b (1) : an obligation (as a debt) created by the decree of a court (2) : a certificate evidencing such a decree
3 a capitalized : the final judging of mankind by God b : a divine sentence or decision; specifically : a calamity held to be sent by God
4 a : the process of forming an opinion or evaluation by discerning and comparing b : an opinion or estimate so formed
5 a : the capacity for judging : DISCERNMENT b : the exercise of this capacity
6 : a proposition stating something believed or asserted
synonym see SENSE
And if I am given the opportunity to keep my surroundings moral and clean of things that I don't believe in, the I will do so. Much like the removal of prayer from schools or the removal of the ten commandments from public viewing. Oh, let's see that offended someone and a "judgment" was passed to prevent a selected group from being offended. Let's see, now gay and lesbian (okay, lesbian's kinda cool if I can watch.........j/k) offend me. I think a "judgement" is needed. Where does this crap stop? I know, let's let everyone do just as they please and then we can pay less taxes as there would be no need for police and military then. Hey that sounds pretty cool. Total chaos.
I think that somewhere in the above crap, I established that there has to be rules or laws for society to maintain a certain order.
Oh I am fired up now. It's okay to tell me that I can't fly my Georgia flag in my own damn yard, but two men can stand on the side walk in front of my house and grope each other. This is bullshit! I am going to another thread before I say something that I will regret.
Where does this crap stop? I know, let's let everyone do just as they please and then we can pay less taxes as there would be no need for police and military then. Hey that sounds pretty cool. Total chaos.
I think that somewhere in the above crap, I established that there has to be rules or laws for society to maintain a certain order.
Yeah, because choosing to be with a person of the same sex totally turns you into a mindless, lawless heathen, not to mention the fact that you'll become hell-bent on converting everyone else to homosexuality.
People are going to continue being gay, regardless of whether they'll be allowed to marry or not. It's just a fact of life. Voting against their ability to marry is like sticking gum over a hole in a dam while water pours out of a crack nearby. Those two guys will still be making out and groping each other on the sidewalk, they just won't be wearing wedding rings.
WTF!?!?! What does prayer in school have to do with giving someone the same legal rights as a man and a woman have for the same emotions? Like it or not, love is love. Whether it be hetero or homosexual. The only difference is that ONE is descriminated against. I dont want to see ANYONE groping regardless of the sex. You make it sound as if being homosexual makes you some sort of pervert.
You are a HELL of a lot judgemental than you want to accept.
The removal of prayer from schools and the ten commandments from government buildings has aboslutely nothing to do with morality nor offense. It has to do with the government (and thereby government institutions) not endorsing any ONE religion - as it clearly states in the Constitution. I, personally, have no problem with ten commandments being posted - if they would be willing to post others' statements of morality right there alongside it, but I'm sure you can imagine how crowded that wall would be.
If you don't want to see two men groping each other in public, close your fucking eyes. THAT is your choice. It should NOT be your choice to tell them they cannot get married. Period. It makes me sick to know that this has actually passed into legislation. You can relate to that sick feeing I'm sure. Take the feeling you obviously have about two guys groping and multiply it times about 1,000. THAT is how sick I feel that government has declared such a thing in the fucking 21st century.
You're absolutely right that rules are necessary for social order, but just exactly what the hell does gay marriage have to do with order and chaos? Please.
That's a washed-up argument. I have yet to have anyone explain to me why a law against gay marriage is a good and better thing other than saying, "because it ain't right," and "because God says it's wrong."
Amaurote
11-16-04, 02:03PM
It pains me to say it, but I can see the Christian Right's point on this one - as an agnostic, I'm all for secular gay marriage and equal rights of cohabitation, but the homophobia of the Bible seems pretty clearcut, even if it is contextualized as merely one example of sin in a nursery where we are all children's of God's wrath: where the Bible babbles complete nonsense, so much the worse for the Bible, of course, but I do wonder why homosexual men and women bother practising the rites of a religion that so obviously loathes and despises them, let alone why they want to promote that religion by pleading for an illogical extension of its liturgy to their closest relationships.
On a tangential point, I found it absolutely hilarious that Bush's year of insidious gay-baiting was crowned at the last second by a last-second blunder in which he fully endorsed the principle of civil homosexual alliances. The spittle on Ann Coulter's op/ed website will probably cause a deluge in southern California.
Sterling
11-16-04, 02:28PM
Some thoughts, in no particular order:
If you're a traditional Christian, then you have a perfect right to be against same-sex marriage. What you do not have is the right to impose your view of the world on anyone else.
In other words, if you are against same-sex marriage the solution is simple: don't marry someone the same sex! Just don't get off thinking you can impose your particular set of values on everybody else.
To address Amaurote's point. If I have it correct, you are saying that a gay-marriage ban is okay because marriage is a fundamentally religious institution and so religious norms should apply (even though you, personally, are an agnostic and so support same-sex civil unions)? There's an obvious problem with that line of reasoning:
Religion is not the same as Christianity. Suppose I found a religion that allows same-sex marriage. Who is to say that my religion is any less valid than Christianity? More to the point, why should the US government get involved in that distinction, especially when the constitution has a clause explicitly forbidding the establishment of one religion over another.
Basically, if you have to invoke the Bible to justify a point of public policy, then you are on extremely slippery ground with respect to separation of church and state.
Nowadays, marriage isn't as much of a religious rite as it was in the past.
It's more of an announcement of union, monogamy, and so on and so forth. Likewise, I don't think many people view it as a religious rite anymore (although it DOES have its roots in religion), save for those who, in my opinion, are trying to preserve the tradition of their religion, and not the sanctity of marriage. Besides, looking at the divorce statistics for the United States within the past several years, one would think that the sanctity of marriage has been more forsaken (by a predominantly heterosexual demographic, no less) than those who oppose gay marriage would lead us to believe.
Many people believe that marriage is the ultimate sign of commitment (of course). So it makes sense that a couple who loves each other enough (regardless of race, sex, species, whatever) would want to wed in order to prove their commitment to each other.
Amaurote
11-16-04, 02:51PM
If I have it correct, you are saying that a gay-marriage ban is okay because marriage is a fundamentally religious institution and so religious norms should apply (even though you, personally, are an agnostic and so support same-sex civil unions)? There's an obvious problem with that line of reasoning
Not exactly, Sterling, in fact I'm essentially in agreement with you: my point wasn't that marriage is a fundamentally religious institution, quite the contrary - just that I find it perverse that homosexuals should seek to effectively lobby for inclusion in the religious rite of a church that denigrates them. In terms of the drive for full legal rights of cohabitation and civil marriage, I understand and support the campaign - what I find very difficult to understand is the accompanying and overlapping campaign for homosexual marriage in the Church, which is a theologically homophobic body. In effect, we now have the slightly unsettling spectacle of homosexuals glorifying something that loathes them to the marrow, body and blood. They'd be much better advised shaking the dust of the televangelist megalopolises from their feet and getting hitched in a registry office in Vegas. Maybe even simultaneously. It would make an excellent episode of Will and Grace, at any rate...which would be a first.
Bassmama
11-16-04, 04:14PM
I have to agree with Enty, Sterling & JakeD.
Amaurote- why should they be excluded from the church (which for the most part the majority of them have been brought up in & believe in- except for one aspect- the prejudiced part) That's like saying that black people should have never wanted equal rights- after all, why should they want equal rights in a country/society that has treated them with such disdain & hatred for so many years? Why should women want to be COs & executives & get equal pay in jobs, since (until recently) they were almost 100% men's jobs & women weren't wanted? I think it's BECAUSE of the judgemental, exclusionary attitude the dominating, controlling men of the church that they are fighting for the right. If the religious sects in control are walked away from & ignored, things will NEVER change.
I just don't understand how children are taught that god is 'all loving' & 'all accepting' & non-judgemental, yet women & gays are considered second rate, at best.
Amaurote
11-16-04, 04:31PM
why should they be excluded from the church (which for the most part the majority of them have been brought up in & believe in- except for one aspect- the prejudiced part)
I'm not saying they should, BM - I'm saying they should leave it voluntarily because Christianity is so scripturally and theologically homophobic that any attempt to participate in it simply helps magnify and strengthen a pernicious, reactionary institution. In other words, it isn't that homosexuals should lobby to be deemed "good enough" to qualify for Christian marriage, which is the rather defeatist argument of most Christian homosexuals, but rather that Christian marriage isn't worth pursuing in the first place: they're better than it. Why anyone would want to spiritually debase themselves by marrying in a church is beyond me.
Incidentally, I don't advocate deference to the church at all - if I had my way the churches would be drummed out of the schools, the NGOs and every other secular agency they've turned into an ideological battleground over countless millennia. However, I do accept that the ultras are correct when they oppose the ordination of women priests and homosexuals and reference the doctrine of collective guilt, because they embody the scriptural reality of the Christian substance (particularly the Catholic and evangelical substance) in a way the modernizers do not. I think they're talking utter crap, of course; but I accept that their crap is entirely consistent with the utter crap that their apostolic predecessors were churning out in absurd codices written nearly 2000 years ago.
Am, gays are fighting for the right for their marriage to be recognized period. Many people of all different religions do not marry in church. They want the government to recognize their union, not the church. That is the big debate. The church should have no say in what the government does. Unfortunately that is not happening. It's for many different reasons, too. The vows are only part of it. It also comes down to legal rights between partners. For instance: A man or woman can put their spouse on their medical benefits, get tax breaks and can receive social security if the other dies. A gay couple has nothing, regardless of how long they have been together. After a certain amount of years of living together (the amount may differ from state to state) a heterosexual couple is considered in a common law marriage.
Sterling
11-16-04, 05:02PM
Gays are also fighting to be more included by the church. I think Am's point is that he doesn't really understand why - Christianity is fundamentally homophobic, so why struggle to be accepted by a club that doesn't want you?
Acceptance by the church is, or at least should be, a distinct question from recognition by the government. Trouble in the US is that the current administration (and, it would appear, large numbers of voters) have difficulty with that point.
Doesn't the Christian Bible call us all sinners? No man or woman is perfect, but may enter the heavens by believing that Jesus Christ was their savior, right? So then how can any man or woman deny someone the right to be recognized since they are ALL sinners in one form or another?
Am, maybe they want to be a part of the church because unlike the sinners who go to it their G-d will forgive them. Or did I miss some "No Gays Allowed" sign posted at St. Peters Gate?
kittyroze
11-16-04, 05:39PM
I just want to interject briefly, I hope that no one minds:
I want to simply say how much I appreciate EVERYone in this forum, and although we disagree from time to time, please remember the fun we have...as well as the ass grabbing and occasional leg humping. Right JakeD?
HeavensAngel
11-16-04, 05:44PM
If any 2 people want to get married, i believe they should not be barred from doing so. Love is love regardless of sex or race. They should be entitiled to the same benefits as anyone, including health care benefits, social security,any kind of insurance etc. What is the big deal? They are paying their taxes and health benefits etc. They should be able to share that with whomever they choose to marry. I saw a movie "If these walls could talk 2" It was about gays. The women in the first part were elderly, lived together as a couple for years. They were gay but were afraid to tell anyone. When one of the women died, the other was left with nothing..The family took everything, including the house she helped pay for, for years. Its not right. If your gay and live together and share a life together, u should get the same benefits as any man and woman. The government has no right to say anything and if your religeon doesn't believe in it, then don't worry about it and get on with your life. Gay people aren hurting anyone. If they marry, how is that hurting you?
MeLsWeEtiE
11-16-04, 05:58PM
Yes, she is.
And enty--if Mel voted against permitting someone to marry someone else on the basis of sexual orientation, then she is most definitely passing judgement--and more. Saying that she isn't won't change the fact that her actions speak for themselves.
I can see how you can read into that...but...what are you supposed to do? Use our American right to vote, go with the decision that you agree with most, despite what anyone else might think, because it is YOUR decision and your choice, or not vote, throw away that right, and have no reason to bitch about things that happen around you. Or the next choice. Vote the way that you think other people want you to vote. No. I don't do either of the latter. I vote the way I want to vote. And it's true, people pass judgments, without even knowing they did. I don't intentionally judge people. It's instinct. For that, I'm sorry that it happens that way. But I'm not the only one. Everyone gets judged through a first impression. It's not on purpose, it's instinct. Sorry, being human can suck in those ways. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Sterling
11-16-04, 06:06PM
Mel: tyranny of the majority is a problem, not an excuse.
To put it another way, you can't really justify a ban on gay marriage just because lots of people voted for it. Back in the day lots of people voted in favor of segregation, and it didn't make that right either.
If you voted to outlaw gay marriage, then you voted to impose your world view on others. Don't fool yourself into thinking you did anything different.
Now, I'm willing to entertain the possibility that there might be a valid argument for imposing your view on others, perhaps for some greater societal good, but so far in this case I haven't heard one.
MeLsWeEtiE
11-16-04, 06:16PM
I did what I did. It's in the past. Maybe 2o years later down the road, there will be an amendment. But for now, it wasn't passed. Segregation...it happened for a while, and while it has taken place, and still currently is taking place, people are opening their eyes. So gay marriage was banned this year. I wasn't alone in making that vote, considering it did beat out everyone that voted against it. Sorry. But times change. We don't know what the future will hold. Considering the results, the majority of the US is not ready to accept gay marriages NOW. We'll just see what happens in the future.
While reading the comments, I decided to reply to something I read. This is a VERY heated thread, but I agree with Kitty that we should all keep in mind what kind of forum this is. We love this place. If we didn't, we wouldn't be here. And there will be arguments and differing opinions, because this place fosters a lot of strong-minded people. But for no reason, should anyone get upset. Like me. I shared my point of view, and I kind of expected what kind of response I would get, but I take it with a grain of salt. I love all of ya'll. There's no argument that would make me never want to come here again. I think it's great that this kind of atmosphere can exist. Just felt like that needed to be said.
Bassmama
11-16-04, 08:08PM
I don't see things getting that heated- at least I HOPE noone's upset- I'm enjoying the HELL out of hearing all sides & discussing things over with you guys. I don't get to discuss things that I consider important with intelligent people too often, so NCT is WONDERFUL, as far as I'm concerned- so many intelligent people to discuss things with.
I think MY main point is that it comes down to the ablitiy to be able to CHOOSE to be married, worship, & live as one pleases- no matter WHAT anyone else thinks about it & without having to be told that one can't, because governmental rules are made by a group of people based on an out of date book that is supposed to have NO bearing on said government rules. Just like abortion & a woman's right to choose.
Sterling
11-16-04, 10:10PM
Honestly, I think even the "pro-life" crowd have a better argument than the anti-gay-marriage advocates. At least the pro-lifers are working on the principle that fetuses have rights that need to be defended. I happen to disagree with that position, but at least I can follow the logic.
With the anti-gay-marriage thing, I keep asking myself "where's the victim"? The reason we have laws banning actions is because those actions infringe on others. It's illegal to murder someone because you would be infringing on their right to life. It's illegal to steal because you would be infringing on someone's property rights. But whose right is being infringed if you allow a gay couple to marry?
Just because you find something distasteful is not a valid reason to make it illegal. I happen to find religion distasteful (mostly for the way it tries to cram its values down other peoples throats), but that doesn't mean I think it should be illegal.
Amaurote
11-17-04, 12:25AM
Doesn't the Christian Bible call us all sinners? No man or woman is perfect, but may enter the heavens by believing that Jesus Christ was their savior, right? So then how can any man or woman deny someone the right to be recognized since they are ALL sinners in one form or another?
Yes, scripturally we're all under his wrath, believers and otherwise, but sola fide, the faith doctrine you're referring to, is specifically a Lutheran doctrine - and even then it has a pretty hefty caveat, namely that faith in practice "bears fruit" (I'll resist that pun manfully at this point for obvious reasons), i.e. in virtue, not sin, and as impressive as some of the liberal accommodationists have been in trying to re-interpret the obvious hatred and association with sin that homosexual elicits in the Bible, they fail miserably. "We are the Lord's elected few, let all the rest be damned" is still the best precis of the early church, and homosexuals are just another of the categories who fail to make it past the hurdle.
And like Sterling rightly says, this may not be the main debate, but it is bubbling away there below it all the time, and not just in North America - the Episcopalian Church has just split the Anglican communion in two over the issue of ordination of a practising homosexual because the African churches refuse to remain in communion with something so contradictory of Scripture. So yes, by all means lobby like hell for civil marriage - you'll have a fair chance, since Bush is pretty ambiguous on the issue, judging by Karl Rove's last minute pre-election panic attack - but don't bother trying to rehabilitate a hopeless recidivist like the church.
You know what, I have typed this post three times and deleted it three times.
Somethings are better left unsaid!
Evilpoptart
11-17-04, 06:20AM
Ice, dun be a wuss, say it, no one is going to hate you. I loathe it when people do that stuff. "well I would say something, but....."
I think you all are missing Am's point here. Its pretty simple. Its like a girl trying to join the boy scouts really. Why fight to join a club in which the rules and ideals are set against you? I voted FOR gay marriage, but personally think they should be fighting for the RIGHTS of marriage AKA civil unions before trying to headbutt the church into letting them inside. Again, Why try to fight to be included in something that is whos idealogy is so clearly cut against you? Sometimes it really makes me made thinking about it.
You have to start off small. Look at the 50's and 60's. It wasn't as if the Civil Rights Movement was like BANG ok, everything is equal, next? Ya know, get the same rights as a normally wed couple first. Things like insurance, visitation rights, tax breaks etc. THEN go for the big boys, aka the catholics and etc. As it stands nnow, there will be no way with the current regime in power, for the gays to get anything with the approach they have been using. Its time to take it to the drawing board.
To Mel and Ice, or anyone who voted for the ban: Again, it is passing judgement, if you admit it or not. And Mel, it realy brings me down to see such a sad attempt to get yourself off the hook about it. Oh well not this year, and etc. Your right not this year, nor any year as long as you think like that. I really suggest you look at this from a civil rights stand point. Like segregation, womens sufferage, etc. Its one group of people telling another what they can and cannot do. How about I tell you that you cannot marry a penis, nor have children, nor goto a decent school, and to top it off, you can't vote. And of course your retort would be, WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU!! And of course, you would be right in saying so.
So I ask you, who the hell are you to tell someone what they can or cannot do??
You are a HELL of a lot judgemental than you want to accept.
All political Christians are. I have personally nothing against Christ or his teachings (lots of them made sense), or the nice people who do follow those teachings--still I can't help but think that if he's watching, he's rather put out with the crap that is being done in his name.
Incidentally, it seems that I am not the only one with this sentiment. (http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1025-25.htm)
Thanks for sharing that article, Lil. It was really good. I've known a few good Christians growing up that I truly admired for their strength and belief. They were the kindest, most generous people. One of them, my old supervisor, will be at the right hand of G-d one day.
Am: "People will know true believers if they have the fruit of the spirit--love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self control.“ That is what I was talking about with the difference in actions. Is that Lutheran? I get so confused about the differences.
What was really nice about that article is that he chose to continue his beliefs and ignore the two faced people. So many more turn away from religion because of the actions of others. In the end they are turning away because of the actions of Man, not G-d. Anyone who follows the actions of Man is bound to be disappointed.
Thanks, Evil, Lilithand Diva. That was what I was trying to say but could find the right words.
I did something unusal, I proof read my post. I didn't like them the second time I read them. I knew where I was going but wasn't sure it would be clear to anyone else. The link that Lilith gave was exactly where I was head. His words were alot nicer than mine as my temper gets the best of me sometimes and I become much like a shotgun. The pellets (words) head in general direction but are scattered. This is a touchy subject for me and I am trying not to step on toes or offend.
With the anti-gay-marriage thing, I keep asking myself "where's the victim"? The reason we have laws banning actions is because those actions infringe on others. It's illegal to murder someone because you would be infringing on their right to life. It's illegal to steal because you would be infringing on someone's property rights. But whose right is being infringed if you allow a gay couple to marry? Exactly. I have asked this question myself, and no one has EVER given me an acceptable answer. (i.e. an answer which has to do with legalities and harming others under our law and not an answer dealing with personal beliefs or religious references)
I'm still waiting on some sort of answer, as a matter of fact.
Lil - Thank you for posting that link. What an excellent article. I've been saying the same thing to friends and family for years. There are very few true Christians left in the world today. Personally, if I were the author of that article, I would continue to call myself Christian, but I would certainly choose a different and more appropriate name for all the other folks who truly aren't. They won't take MY name. :)
If people would live by - or even STRIVE to live by - one simple precept, the world would be a much better place.
============
THE GOLDEN RULE
Christianity
All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
Matthew 7:1
Confucianism
Do not do to others what you would not like yourself. Then there will be no resentment against you, either in the family or in the state.
Analects 12:2
Buddhism
Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful.
Udana-Varga 5,1
Hinduism
This is the sum of duty; do naught onto others what you would not have them do unto you.
Mahabharata 5,1517
Islam
No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself.
Sunnah
Judaism
What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellowman. This is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary.
Talmud, Shabbat 3id
Taoism
Regard your neighbor’s gain as your gain, and your neighbor’s loss as your own loss.
Tai Shang Kan Yin P’ien
Zoroastrianism
That nature alone is good which refrains from doing another whatsoever is not good for itself.
Dadisten-I-dinik, 94,5
(source: http://www.teachingvalues.com/goldenrule.html)
========
Why is that so hard to do?
Amaurote
11-17-04, 12:38PM
All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to them
Well, speaking in my ex officio capacity as a creepy, furtive sado-masochist, this just keeps getting better and better.
Okay, does anyone know what he just said?
Well, speaking in my ex officio capacity as a creepy, furtive sado-masochist, this just keeps getting better and better.
Ex officio? Who took away your title? :P
Amaurote
11-17-04, 01:45PM
Well, what can I say, Jake, you reach thirty and ex officio sounds kind of inviting...those long winter nights, living on a big clammy hill and walking two miles up it every evening, y'know, you kind of get tired. I caught myself fantasizing about Felicity Kendal the other day and she's technically deceased - like Rula Lenska.
Evilpoptart
11-17-04, 04:59PM
Now Am, I love ya man, more so then most people. BUT COME ON!!! WHO THE HELL ARE THESE PEOPLE!!! You could have said "I'm off this horse like Christopher Reeve" and I would have got it. But Felicity Kendal? No way the avergae Yank is going to know her....
Though I will have to say Lenska was a tad better actress...
I thought he was talking about some show (http://tv.yahoo.com/tvpdb?id=1807777887&d=tvi&cf=0) on the WB channel.
Didn't this country go through something similar to this back quite a few years ago with interacial marriages?
* Ice Man scratches head in a state of confusion.
Name Dropper.......NaH!
Bassmama
11-18-04, 05:24AM
Yes, it did. Only, for some reason, it wasn't quite as ridiculous as this (governmental interferance) probably because the whole thing about racial equality, marching, & civil unrest & disobedience had just calmed down & the politicians didn't dare try to legislate their narrowmindedness into everyone's lives. The difference here is that there hasn't been the civil disobedience & strife, the citizenry is so overwhelmed with so many issues that they can't concentrate enough on one to get together & fight for it, & we presently have a government that is purposely sidetracking the populace with smaller issues so they can push through what they want unnoticed. The majority of the people in this country are no more than sheep being herded back & forth by dogs....
AMEN, sister. Preach on.
* Ice Man ducks the shoe from Diva. HA HA HA HA HA
Can or will anyone who voted against gay marriage provide an answer for the general question posed by myself and Sterling?
To quote Sterling's post:
With the anti-gay-marriage thing, I keep asking myself "where's the victim"? The reason we have laws banning actions is because those actions infringe on others. It's illegal to murder someone because you would be infringing on their right to life. It's illegal to steal because you would be infringing on someone's property rights. But whose right is being infringed if you allow a gay couple to marry?
Amaurote
11-18-04, 11:34AM
Felicity Kendal is like a septuagenarian version of Callista Flockhart, only both more and less theoretically accessible, depending on your class background. Funnily enough, I was watching an old episode of Doctor Who the other day and Rula Lenska showed up as a leader of the human resistance - in the episode, I mean, not in my house as I was watching it , that would be plain ridiculous. I've always liked the name "Rula Lenska", incidentally, it sounds like a really cool game Albanian children might play in the streets with improvized skittles, or maybe a phonetic rendering of a Polish-language translation of a chapter in Machiavelli, although where Albanian children would find such a book is beyond me. But I digress.
Entipy is quite right, of course - it also begs the question of why we have laws of blasphemy, since the ostensible purpose of blasphemy laws is to defend God, who is presumably big and ugly enough to take care of himself when finite beings say rude things to him.
Amaurote
11-18-04, 02:41PM
You mean you as in the United States? My understanding is that you have them, but they haven't been enforced for about thirty years, which is pretty much the same as over here.
Yes, that's what I meant.
Hmmm.
Hmmmmm. Who is the victum? Let's see....I am just speculating here......ME! Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough on the subject and I believe that I have rights to. I elect my right to not be subjected to such nonsense. I don't want to see it. Again, I believe my right to not want in my neighborhood is sufficient enough for my vote against it. But this is just me. That's why we have a choice. Now, should we have a choice, why not. Judges take rights away from people everyday without the public being able to vote. There's where your argument should be.
* Ice Man renders his head gear and fire arms. This is going to be a bumpy ride.
Amaurote
11-18-04, 03:36PM
You mean your right not to be subjected to nonsense would be infringed by gay people marrying in your neighbourhood? Well, sure - but by logical extension poor people in your neighbourhood shouldn't be allowed to vote Republican. Actually, now I think about it, maybe we should adopt Ice Man's proposal after all.
whitecrow
11-18-04, 04:22PM
Hmmmmm. Who is the victum? Let's see....I am just speculating here......ME!.
Icey - to me your argument holds no water. Think about it - are you against ME marrying my fiancee?
I mean, we're different races in a way. Sure, we may both be white and both stem originally from Europe, but I'm not an American, she's not an Australian. OMG! Interracial marriage!
Marriage is about the union of TWO PEOPLE who LOVE, HONOUR and RESPECT eachother. God knows, Gay people can't LOVE, HONOUR or RESPECT can they? The institution of marriage is RUINED!
No one's forcing you to LIKE gay marriages or gay people, I guess (I'm not gay, I don't know) what they want is tolerance. The majority of them are kind, decent people who want to live in peace and love whom they choose.
What if one of your children were gay?
What if your dad was gay?
Or your mum?
It happens, Icey and the sooner we accept that this difference is what makes humanity work, the better.
* whitecrow gives Icey a flower.
After hurling insults at the computer and deleting three paragraphs I can now say I am completely and utterly horrified and appalled. I had to grow up around people like you, IceMan. Racist idiots who didn't want 'dirty jews' in their neighborhood. I was taunted and chased around. I was called all sorts of names and treated worse than the 2 black kids that were there. Not to say that they had a great time either.
Like it or not, America is all about diversity. There are people from all over the world here. I have friends from different cultures and they just make life more interesting. You want to know angry? Try being on the other side for a second. Try being the person who is hated and treated as a second class citizen by ignorant inbreds who think that anything different is a danger to them and therefore must be killed. Try living in a world where you aren't allowed to be yourself because someone decides what is right.
You don't OWN your neighborhood. You can't dictate who walks down the fucking street. What's next? Crosses on the lawn? String em up high? Do you own a white cloak? :finger: :finger: :finger:
I wouldn't worry about headgear. I don't think anything will penetrate that skull.
What I don't understand is the line of logic that somehow explains that by denying someone a right....the person who denies someone a right and enforces their mindset on those who just want an equal playing field...is the victim? Because that IS what you're saying.
By that line of logic, Hitler was a victim. Not those who were persecuted by the Nazi regime.
That doesn't make any sense to me, and it shouldn't make sense to anyone else either, to be entirely honest. Well, besides the Nazis, I mean.
Evilpoptart
11-18-04, 08:30PM
Ok Ice, I am sorry, but you've had this coming.
WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU TO SAY WHO CAN OR CANNOT GET MARRIED!!
Its closed minded shit like that which keeps the human race from evolving. your mentality belongs in Germany circa 1939 my friend, you need to grow up, and wake the up. People and thoughts like that got 6 million Jews killed. "Because they didn't want to see them on their block"
I see shit everyday I dont like. Women driving SUV's. Rap music too loud. Bush on TV. Stupid rednecks against gay marriage. It doesnt mean it should be outlawed. ANY LAW WHICH DEPRIEVES ANY GROUP OF ANY RIGHTS IS WRONG. I cannot stress that enough. This country was founded on FREEDOM my friend, not that taking away of personal liberties. All men are created FUCKING EQUAL.
WWW.FUCKTHESOUTH.COM was right Iceman, hense you getting so pissed off. I am beginning to understand.
People are people Ice, and are going to do what they are going to do. Even if you don't agree. But just because you don't agree doesn't make it "wrong" for society in general.
What happened to love thy neighbor? or infinite forgivness and understanding? Its like some people just selectively edit out shit in the Bible and only use what supports thier arguments. If thats the case, then maybe they should read the parable of the Hypocrite.
Its not like all the sudden BOOM, dudes are going to be butt fucking on your lawn or some shit. Straight women and men don't have sex on your lawn, and if they did, why haven't you set up a live feed yet?
Just kindly move aside Iceman, so society can move forward.
You know what, Somethings are better left unsaid. But, FUCK IT. I have never been one to sit down or run from a fight. So here goes nothing.
To those whom refer to me as a freakin' REDNECK!!!, I say this FUCK YOU! How would you like it if I made reference to you the slang words used against your generalities. It would piss you off. Well that shit pisses me off. I will save you some time and effort.
Main Entry: red·neck
Pronunciation: 'red-"nek
Function: noun
1 sometimes disparaging : a white member of the Southern rural laboring class
2 often disparaging : a person whose behavior and opinions are similar to those attributed to rednecks
- redneck also red·necked /-"nekt/ adjective
If you read this closely you will see a verb being used. If case you are not that versed here the definition of that as well:
Main Entry: dis·par·age
Pronunciation: di-'spar-ij
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -aged; -ag·ing
Etymology: Middle English, to degrade by marriage below one's class, disparage, from Middle French desparagier to marry below one's class, from Old French, from des- dis- + parage extraction, lineage, from per peer
1 : to lower in rank or reputation : DEGRADE
2 : to depreciate by indirect means (as invidious comparison) : speak slightingly about
synonym see DECRY
- dis·par·age·ment /-ij-m&nt/ noun
- dis·par·ag·er noun
- dis·par·ag·ing adjective
- dis·par·ag·ing·ly /-ij-i[ng]-lE/ adverb
Now, how I understand it. I understand that some of America doesn't like "REDNECKS" as they think that they are beneath them in someway.
I thought that I loved this place because no matter what your opinion, you were accepted and were part of the family. At no point here have I ever pointed my finger and said you were wrong for the way you thought. NEVER!!! I have strongly stated my opinion and always stated that it was just mine. You didn't have to move aside, accept it, or even change your train of thought based on anything that I have stated. If you despise me that badly, DIVA. Ban me from the site. Until then, I am ICE MAN. I live here and fought for this great country to have the right to your opinion. That's the beauty of it everyone has opinions. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has them and they all stink. (Based clearly on theory. Keep your arse to yourself JakeD. I don't want to smell it.)
* Ice Man wields his sword and pounds his armor.
Bassmama
11-19-04, 06:56AM
You know what, Somethings are better left unsaid. But, FUCK IT. I have never been one to sit down or run from a fight. So here goes nothing.
To those whom refer to me as a freakin' REDNECK!!!, I say this FUCK YOU! How would you like it if I made reference to you the slang words used against your generalities. It would piss you off. Well that shit pisses me off. I will save you some time and effort.
If you read this closely you will see a verb being used. If case you are not that versed here the definition of that as well:
Now, how I understand it. I understand that some of America doesn't like "REDNECKS" as they think that they are beneath them in someway.
I thought that I loved this place because no matter what your opinion, you were accepted and were part of the family. At no point here have I ever pointed my finger and said you were wrong for the way you thought. NEVER!!! I have strongly stated my opinion and always stated that it was just mine. You didn't have to move aside, accept it, or even change your train of thought based on anything that I have stated. If you despise me that badly, DIVA. Ban me from the site. Until then, I am ICE MAN. I live here and fought for this great country to have the right to your opinion. That's the beauty of it everyone has opinions. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has them and they all stink. (Based clearly on theory. Keep your arse to yourself JakeD. I don't want to smell it.)
* Ice Man wields his sword and pounds his armor.
Oh, shit- here we go- now it's My turn -
EVERYBODY CALM THE FUCK DOWN!!!!!!!
Icey, darlin'- noone here EVER said that you couldn't have your opinion, but you DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO FORCE IT ON ANYONE ELSE! By saying that you would not want "THEM" in your neighborhood, and that you would take action ("vote against" allowing them into your neighborhood) you are being close-minded & voicing that you would take action to force your closed mindedness against others who weren't just like you.
Do you realize that the VAST majority of serial killers, perverts that abuse children, and sexual lawbreakers are NOT GAY? Do you know if gay people DID live in your neighborhood, most likely the worst thing you would experience would be kindness & respect from them? And I fail to understand how YOU would be the victim, when you would be victimizing. That's like my mother in law when she told me that I MADE her treat me like shit because I "took my son away from me & I'm JEALOUS!" I'm the bad guy? I don't THINK SO!!!!
Now, as far as being a Redneck, I don't know if you are or not, but there's enough rednecks around here that you sound like most of the time that I've wondered. BTW- I got called a Yankee when I was down south this past spring & my retort was to stand up, glare at the guy that said it & say "YES I AM!" & grin & bow, then sit back down. I got an ovation & the party carried on even greater than before.
Diva throw you off the site? I doubt that VERY VERY much! For one, you are a reminder that the 'attitude' still exists out there & society needs work. Not only that, but you rattle our cages & make us think. Not to mention that YOU ARE A BIG PART OF THIS FAMILY THAT WE CALL NCT!!!!! If you were thrown off of this site just because you expressed your opinion because it was different from others, I would be PISSED! There WOULD be problems! I don't think I'm the only one, either.
Personally, I think you DID deserve the reaction you got- not as extremely as you got it- but I defend your right to have that opinion. Sometimes, though, your opinions are because of your upbringing & you refuse to see how they affect others. IOW- you use your opinions in front of you like an inpenatrable shield & don't want to look around that shield because you might see that things aren't the way you've always thought they were. Do you have blacks 'in your neighborhood'? It wasn't that long ago that THEY were treated like you propose to treat a gay couple. And a black man that kissed a white woman on the cheek got hung from a tree. Start putting yourself in other peoples' places & really THINK what it would be like to walk in their shoes, would you please? I just WISH there was a way that you could go somewhere & PRETEND to be gay for a month (A neighborhood like yours full of people that think like you do) & see how you're treated. PRETEND to be black & have your skin color changed. SEE how people that are different than you are treated. You WON'T like it!
As far as your comment to JakeD- he has a right to his opinion, too. He didn't say anything against you, just made a point. For you to come back at him with a flame was out of line, even though I realize it was because you were pissed. That's the same place where Diva was coming from, BTW- only she is in a MUCH more painful place & you happened to hit her sore spot with your verbal stick.
Now- for the rest of the people that answered Icey back- I can understand the anger & passion, but flaming Ice Man for expressing his opinion isn't going to make him change his mind, any more than burning the Branch Dividians to death made them less paranoid. I think Icey has come a LONG way since I joined this site- Diva, you even said it last week- he has a good heart, just needs to connect his brain to it sometimes. (Or something along those lines.) Flaming Icey or whoever else disagrees isn't going to change his mind any more than beating a dog is going to make him climb a tree. If anything, it's going to have a negative effect- he'll start shitting on the floor. Do you all want a site here where everyone agrees all the time? I don't! Passion, exchange of ideas, finding out about other people & cultures, LEARNING! THAT'S what I love about this site & EVERY ONE OF YOU that belong to it! That INCLUDES Ice Man.
I think everyone owes each other apologies- NOT for your opinions or passion, but for the flames & anger that started coming out towards each other.
SUE
First of all, you didn't fight the English, you fought in Desert Storm. I HAD my rights to my opinion, so don't try shoving that military superiority down my throat. The only rights you fought for were the citizans of Kuwait. You were fighting for people who weren't your religion and weren't the same race. How sad that as a soldier you would try to protect those that are not like you but as a Christian you denounce them as fellow human beings.
You are a redneck. Look at number 2 of Dictionary.com's description. That fits you to a tee.
red·neck ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rdnk)
n. Offensive Slang
1. Used as a disparaging term for a member of the white rural laboring class, especially in the southern United States.
2. A white person regarded as having a provincial, conservative, often bigoted attitude.
I jokingly use that term all the time. This time I was and am dead serious. You don't like it? Then think before you react. I don't think you'll ever change your thoughts and I don't care. People who spew hatred like that have been around for a long time. They are all over the world, hating what is different. They think that only THEIR way is right and everyone else is in the wrong. Redneck isn't about lower class to me, so don't clump me in that category. Your opinions don't make me think you're a lower class, they scare me. They're the attitude this country needs to get away from.
When you first came to this site I thought it would be interesting to have your religious opinion thrown into the mix. I figured you were well aware of my stance on human rights and equal rights for those who are treated as 'the lesser citizen'. Granted, I'm not as liberal as a lot of my friends but respect for people as human beings is a strong one. I also assumed that you in some way followed the same path in thinking for basic human rights. Now you stand here denouncing others and expect me not to react? As for strongly stating... you are more flip floppy than Kerry's senate record jokes. You hop up and down like mad, then say some vague agreement to Mine, Evil's and Lilith's comments... although I don't know what you are agreeing to. In the end WE are talking about hope. Hope that in the future people will accept each other more. YOU make statements that sound like you are happy just like it is. If you had your way they'd all be corralled and bannished to some island. Who's next on your list, Ice Man? Blacks? Hispanics? Liberals? I don't care how many 'aquantances' you have. It's what's in your heart that matters.
Yes, everyone has a right to their opinion. This is a discussion board, so if you plan on sharing yours then be prepared to discuss it.
Hmmmmm. Who is the victum? Let's see....I am just speculating here......ME! [...] I elect my right to not be subjected to such nonsense. I don't want to see it. Again, I believe my right to not want in my neighborhood is sufficient enough for my vote against it. That is still not a valid argument for having a constitutional ban on gay marriage, Ice Man. Do you think outlawing the marriage between gay people is going to prevent them from still living together, showing each other affection, and even *GASP* moving into your neighborhood?
Still waiting for a valid reason.
Oh, and *claps loudly for Diva's first post* You go, girl!
If everyone would learn to live in another's shoes before passing judgment on them, the world would be a much better place (which is why I posted the Golden Rule thing).
Let me tell you a story about my friend Steve. He was born and raised in Tennessee by a loving mother and father with one older sister. From the time he was about 8 years old he knew he felt different. He liked boys. He never told anyone this and tried to fit in. When he was about 12 years old he heard his mother and sister talking about a gay church in town. He went to it and talked to them. They gave him information and let him decide. He kept coming back. When he was 16 his mother found a letter he had ripped up and put it back together. He arrived home from school with his parents holding the letter out. They took him to a psychiatric ward for a 45 day evaluation. After 45 days they went back and the doctor said, "You're son is not sick, he is gay. I suggest you accept that and love him as your son." It was very hard for them, but they accepted him and are still very close.
We had a member on here a while back who is gay. She lived in Alabama. She came on after being missing and told us about her ordeal. She was walking out of some bar holding a girls hand and was jumped by several guys. This girl is tiny and got beaten bad. The reason? She was holding a woman's hand. I hug and kiss both my male and female friends. I'm not gay. I would hate to be judged because of a positive trait.
While the question of the church acceptance is still strong, I am more concerned with their basic right to live their lives.
I agree, Darlin' (and I mean that with love) that the behaviour towards individuals should not be violent. I would stand for her protection on any given day. What they did to her was wrong. As for your friend Steve, well I hear stories similar alot. Do I believe people are born gay? It's possible, I guess. But I highly doubt that the precentage of gay individuals that we have in the world today were born that way. I could be wrong or not. Who the hell knows. I wish them all the best with exception to reaping the benefits of a religion that strictly opposes by doctrine the lifestyle. "Gay Church?", that's an oxymoron if they are professing to be christians. Read Romans, Chapter one for the scripture for reference. I won't post it here. Then you will understand where I am coming from, I hope.
I answered a question and though it didn't fill the expectations of some, I was flamed. My friends and I joke about being a redneck. But much the same as other cultures have those names that are used between them, but others shouldn't use. Especially, in a negative fashion. I hope this makes since.
Thank you Bass, for your comments. I was not attacking JakeD, and I am sure that he know that was a joke.
Let me tell you a story. I was born into a very comfortable family and enjoyed life with lots of friends until my parents divorced when I was twelve. My mother was unable to work so we found ourselves on welfare. As some people know because we were caucasion, we found ourselves lacking even there. I also learned about society and how fake people can be. Because we could not afford the luxories that my old friends had, I was outcast by them. Well, you can't keep a good man down. I learned how to survive and make my own descisions in life without peer pressure. That's a positive. I started going to church when I was sixteen on my own. I learned about Christ and his love. I have tried many times to live by his teachings and yet I have failed miserably. I joined the military when I was twenty years of age. At the time, except for the three guys that I played football with, I had no relations with any other cultures. My roomates were African American and Jewish. Talk about a culture shock. We are still in communication today. They are my brothers. Get this, one is from New York and the other from Pittsburgh and they both feel the same as I do on the subject matter. Does that make them REDNECKS? Try calling Jacob or Terrance a REDNECK! The fact is that I believe the christian doctrine. I try to live by it. There is one thing that I learned early in life and I have seen it posted and spoke about on several occasions. The Golden rule, I do treat individuals as I would have the treat me with respect and dignity. I try dearly to ignore the negative comments made by those who don't take the time to get to know me. I will treat you as you treat me as well. That my dears is human nature.
This subject gets on my bad sad easily. A subject that I don't agree with is pressured on me constantly. I have aquaintances who are gay both female and male. I have friends with relatives with family members who are gay. I accept and respect them as individuals. They don't force their life style on me as they know that I don't understand nor agree with it. I do not think less of them for their lifestyle.
Listen, Bass was right when she said that apologies are needed. Normally, I would go back and delete the offensive post but, this time I will not. I am not a bigot, racist or clan member nor am I a basher of women, children or gays.
Listen I love all of you with all of my heart. I love the diversity. I have been ignored, flamed and whatever else for being me and having my opinion and yet I still continue to post and visit with you all. I didn't mean to offend you but, I will take up for myself. I do have insecurities and when you attack my person, I am as a badger that will fight till the death.
You have my humblist apologies for offending you. However, I will not change my opinion on the subject matter until G-D himself tells me that it is okay.
I kind of jumped around a little in this thread because, you know.. I have self imposed ADD.. I refuse to donate a large hunk of attention to moronic bullshit. It keeps me sane. But since I was sent the thread and I never post here anymore I'd love to partake in the little joy fest.
Let's try to make this argument a little more interesting since it seems to be Iceman against the universe at the moment and try to find a legitimate reason for outlawing gay marriage.
How about the fact that if gays marry they are afforded the same rights that any other couple that marries enjoys. Tax credit, loan considerations, etc.. Does this hurt the average non gay, I don't like gay marriage person's pocketbook? No. So that kind of throws that out the window.
We have Icemans argument that he doesn't want to see it. Which, you know, seems pretty legitimate to me. I mean I wouldn't really want to look out my front window and see Fred and Arnold having a boy on boy fuckfest for sloppydick.com either. But quite honestly that has nothing to do with marriage. Thats just kinky sex, and that's not outlawed.. YET.
How about the bible. I mean, the whole gay's are bad thing *is* in the bible right? I mean if you look in the book of Leviticus you'll find something along the lines of "thou shalt not lie with a man as a woman for it is an abomination unto god". Which, you know.. seems to be pretty crystal clear to me. God don't like gay. So they shouldn't be allowed to marry right? Absolutely not.
Oh but wait, in another part of the bible.. and I'm gonna look this up.. it says:
1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
Well hot fucking damn.. that's quite a few people. And as far as I know the fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, thieves, covetous, drunkerds and so on, even down to the effeminate are still allowed to be married and God thinks they suck too. So why shouldn't homosexual men and women have the right to marriage? There are no laws against the rest of God's list of the damned.. YET
In case you missed the two yets in my little post so far, this is my point about the ground we are breaking now. It's dangerous. The current administration is leaning so far to the right their little elephant is walking more lopsided than President Bush at a cocktail party. And with that non-temperate view in mind, I don't believe that any amendment should be made to the constitution removing rights, especially not by this administration at this time. It doesn't take much of a brain to see where that will lead.
The fact of the matter is in our contry gays are allowed to be gay. That is a non issue. A ban on gay marriage just means they can't have the rights that every other citizen in the country is granted, even the sinners, even the abominations unto god, it doesn't stop them from fucking on your front lawn. There are existing laws for that. In my opinion homosexuals deserve the same rights as us 'normal' folk, neh? That is supposed to be the cornerstone of the government here. All men are created equal mess, ya know?
Hi everyone btw.
* entipy smooches Bane
Howdy! Nice points. :D
==============
Now, I must point out some things, and it may seem like I'm picking on you Ice Man, but.... well, I may be a little bit. I like for people to always be aware of what they say because I think it's important. We ARE our words and deeds.
So, here are some quotes from some of your posts:
I do treat individuals as I would have the treat me with respect and dignity.
I accept and respect them as individuals. [...] I do not think less of them for their lifestyle.
I don't judge anyone for living this lifestyle however
I elect my right to not be subjected to such nonsense.
It doesn't make since and how can a species survive with such nonsense going on.
(emphasis mine)
I think the words can speak for themselves.
Please remember, Ice Man, that my stance in this has nothing to do with your opinion that homosexuality is wrong. That is your opinion, and you have every right to it, even if I disagree. My stance has to do with the fact that, since marriage is a legal entity in our country, the legal right to it (and all of its advantages and disadvantages) should be afforded to ALL U.S. citizens. If it were an issue I disagreed with, I would still feel the same way.
It takes a bigger person to support the rights of others when it goes against their beliefs than it does to support those with whom they are in agreement.
Bassmama
11-19-04, 12:45PM
Hot DAMN, Bane- you single? Ya like older women???:winkkiss: EXCELLENT points made!
Ice Man- you say you live by the bible- live by the whole thing, if you're going to, will you? Not just the parts that prove you 'right'- that's being hypocritical IMHO. Maybe you need to read through it again.
* Bassmama bows to Bane. "Come back on more often, will ya?"
Good points, Enty!
Great points but, please don't take my phrases out of context. I very seldom make a single sentence that will stand alone. I apologize but, I am not a public speaker with the talent to win people with words.
Bass, come on now. I know you read that. I think maybe it said that "I try to live by it." Along with, I fail miserably quite often in so many words. I never have claimed to be perfect.
Bane dude, you have done it. You have changed my mind, not really but my train of thought. If I stand to remember, what I voted on was an amendment to prohibit courts from making the descision of whether or not it was legal. I could be incorrect, though or misunderstood what I voted on.
In retrospect, thank you kind people for the inlightening conversation that will haunt me forever. And for as long as I live, I shall not place myself on the cutting block at NCT ever again. When you stick your neck out, it gets cut off.
Oh, bullshit!!! My point of view is just as well deserved as yours.
* Ice Man sits on bag of ice to cool down. AHHHHHHHHH!
You definately won the ladies over, Bane. It all boils down to whether or not you believe that you have been true to yourself and honest to others. I believe I have done so.
Again, thank you for your comments and the opportunity to share mine. See I am nice. (laughing)
This thread has had a wide range of emotions for me. The only thing that I haven't done in this thread is cry.
IceMan, you called people's lifestyle nonsense and said you didn't want to see it. As others have stated this law doesn't stop homosexuality, just the benefits that every other citizen gets. That's what we are discussing. You opened up a whole other discussion about acceptance.
I won't go into my life story, but there is one thing I learned about hard times. Some people learned from it and others didnt. Your childhood doesn't prove anything except that you saw a mild side of what people live with for the rest of their lives. You can work hard and eventually get back on your feet. What can they do? Besides lie about what is in their heart so YOU can feel better....
Maybe you should read Bane's statement again before judging that gay church. You said that you failed miserably to live a good 'Christian' lifestyle. I always thought that Christians didn't judge others and that all men and women were sinners but forgiven by Jesus. So which is it? Are you forgiven if you believe in Jesus Christ or is it your sins that pave the way to the pearly gates? From what I understand it's one or the other. Unfortunately I've heard both answers depending upon what is convenient at the time.
I really didn't post to win the ladies over Ice, that just comes natural and stuff. Women love me till they start dating me, then turn into man eating demons bent on the destruction of the universe. It's a blessing and a curse. I don't really know what you're saying with that since if I wanted to win over the ladies I could think of at least a few ways better than posting to a thread about gay marriage. Besides I only won Bassmama over, Enty has always wanted my babies. :)
Understand for me I'm not bashing you at all but rather trying to come to a better understanding of your position and analyzing the issue from as many points as I can manage when looking at it. What I find is that I really don't understand your aversion other than as some sort of morality last stand on the issue. Like most people it seems you are saying you are willing to concede that gay people are people too, however marriage is so sacred that it should be refused to them as a people. Is this the case? You are aware that the government recognizes civil unions I suppose, so let me ask you a couple questions to sort of clarify your position for me just so I can understand a little better and hey, maybe even learn something from you.
1) Is your objection primarily religious or revulsion based? Meaning are you adverse simply because you think it’s against god or because it makes your stomach turn? I suppose you could answer that it is both.
1a) If religion, don't you think that’s something that they will have to sort out with god when they get there?
1b) If revulsion do you think that you being sick to your stomach over something should be a driving force in someone else’s life? I for example get really grossed out when someone puts those salty eyebrow fish on their pizza but I would never sign a constitutional amendment to ban them.
2) Since you are adverse to homosexual marriage but don't seem to have a problem with the way things are now would you be willing to concede that the government should afford equal rights to 'civil unions' as they would to a marriage?
3) When you voted on that amendment (whichever it was in your state) did you simply vote based on your dislike of the thought of gay marriage or did you consider all the implications of allowing a constitutional amendment on something like this?
Maybe we can figure out what we have in common .. if anything .. on the issue.
Bassmama - I'm semi single and a pain in the ass of biblical proportions.
Enty - Don't argue with the baby thing, you know it's true.
Amaurote
11-19-04, 03:10PM
"I don't like peas, and I'm glad I don't like peas, because if I liked them I would have to eat them, and I hate them."
When you're right your right Am.
Evilpoptart
11-19-04, 04:26PM
Well though this thread seems to be dead now, I do have to say, any law, let alone Constitutional Amendment which takes away the rights of others is inherently WRONG. The people who founded this country will be rolling over in their graves if such a thing comes to pass.
If I recall, the only amendment that took away rights was repealed. The Constitution is a sacred document, and shouldnt be meddled with lightly. Its there to give people rights and freedoms, not to take them away.
Bassmama
11-19-04, 09:30PM
Bane, darlin', you're in luck on a couple of counts- I'm semi-single, too & can't have kids any more. I also don't mind if you're a pain in the ass (unless it's literally.)- if you look pretty good with your clothes off & can just stand in the corner & turn slowly & not say much, I'll be happy.:winkkiss:
Ice Man - I really don't see where I took your words out of context. You used the term "nonsense" on more than one occasion when talking about homosexuals then turned around and said you "respected" that choice, even if you didn't agree. I don't think calling something nonsense goes along with respecting it.
Bane - :p
* entipy shakes her ass
whitecrow
11-21-04, 02:52PM
Icey, what I don't understand is that you are a military man - you know (or at least should) that there are homosexuals in the military. Shit, man, that could have been Carson Kressley right next to you on your tour.
They fought, suffered and died right along with their comrades, and served their country.
And you would turn around and say they are not entitled to the same freedoms you are?
I am confused.
You know what's sad, whitecrow? In the military they have a 'dont ask, dont tell' rule. Which in the end means shit when they are still being kicked out when their lifestyle is found out.
See, I have learned something here. We can express ourselves in written words and elate emotions with emoticons. However, communications requires other attributes to be able to translate a word's meaning. Facial expressions, tone and eye contact are key tools needed in communicating. Especially on such a heated topic. I am far from being a poet with my words to when the attention of others. I succeed very well in gaining attention with my words. However negative attention (be it attention) it is still negative.
One of these days, I will learn to shut my fingers up and go about my business. Life is too short to fret a whole weekend as I did this last one over this sort of stuff. In another thread, I spoke about somethings about me. Well this weekend, I had to deal with that shit again. Therefore, I shall not post on such topics that can lead to such contraversy. I love each and everyone of you and do not wish to continue as many people have placed me on ignore as I was told. That is not a fitting situation for me as I do RESPECT you and your ideas as being who you are. Although, I may not agree with you, it is not my position to try and change your mind. I have never done that. I do not wish to try.
CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG? :(
Only one person put you on ignore that I know of, not that I approve of people announcing such things. Most NCTers aren't like that and want to listen to what others have to say, so don't worry about that.
People need to realize words are taken at face value on the internet. When you post in an angry manner, you should expect that in return... especially when you are going against what a lot of people are saying.
I have told many people to look around at the type of board this is before even signing up when they ask me about it. When you make comments that are different from 'most' people you have to expect a reaction.
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