Fuck You, American Government

[whitecrow]

BERLIN (Reuters) - By subjecting most visitors to scans of their faces and fingers, the United States will this week expand a mass surveillance system that threatens freedom and race relations, a privacy watchdog says.
Full Article HERE = Reuters 29/09 (http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=593063&section=news)

Not only does Biometric scanning completely trample over BASIC HUMAN rights, it also contravenes the US's OWN CONSTITUTION. Oh, but it doesn't matter - these people aren't Americans.

United Nations Doco On Economic And Social Council (http://www.un.org/documents/ecosoc/docs/2001/e2001-l24rev1.pdf) (PDF)

Article 17 (1) states that "…no one shall be subjected to arbitrary or unlawful interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to unlawful attacks on his honour or reputation."
That's international LAW.
(HERE (http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/enable/comp202.htm))

So what's your view on this violation of human rights? :finger:

[Poseidon]

US Government Stance: We are better then everyone else, so we are allowed to do anything AND it "protects" us

[Boozer]

Fuck You, America

Excuse me? I don't remember everyone in America getting to vote on this, so you'll have to forgive me if I take offense to that statement. Once again, as it has been said before on here, don't hate us all because of something stupid our government has done.

As for how I feel about this, it's an invasion of everything. Personal rights, privacy rights, human rights, etc. It's wrong, and should not happen. Hopefully, it won't last long.

And, for now anyway, you can take this :finger: and, well, you know.

[whitecrow]

Excuse me? I don't remember everyone in America getting to vote on this, so you'll have to forgive me if I take offense to that statement. Once again, as it has been said before on here, don't hate us all because of something stupid our government has done.

As for how I feel about this, it's an invasion of everything. Personal rights, privacy rights, human rights, etc. It's wrong, and should not happen. Hopefully, it won't last long.

And, for now anyway, you can take this :finger: and, well, you know.


Step 1:
Write to your congressman/woman expressing your outrage the basic human rights are being violated.
Step 2:
Organise a petition of ordinary, friendly, non media-controlled Americans stating that they, too are outraged - send to said representitive.
Step 3:
Ask all your friends from all around the country to do steps 1-3.

The government doesn't have to have a vote on this, and if they did, they'd brainwash the faithful to say it's all about "national security" And how were all "foreigners" anyway, not freedom-loving Americans.

This boils my blood in so many ways that it's not funny. Hello? America? I have a Mr.Orwell on the phone for you.

End game - this won't end until the people take a stand. Or it will spread and soon EVERYONE (YOU included) will be scanned, fingerprinted, DNA identified and put on a national database. For, you know "security".

[Diva]

Whitecrow.... I don't approve of it. It scares me. But the one thing I HATE is when a whole country is blamed. By saying "Fuck you, America" you are saying that to me and every other US person here. You can't blame a whole country for something that individuals have done.

[whitecrow]

Whitecrow.... I don't approve of it. It scares me. But the one thing I HATE is when a whole country is blamed. By saying "Fuck you, America" you are saying that to me and every other US person here. You can't blame a whole country for something that individuals have done.


Laying dormant whilst big brother wraps you up is not much better. There's a line between border protection and outright insanity.

The first thing I would be doing is making MY voice heard. There is no way I would stand for such things. Guantanimo bay is bad enough, but insult to injury to salt in your wounds and in your eyes.

(If you like, change the title to Fuck You, American Government)

[LizardKing]

Are you seriously suggesting that having your picture and fingerprint taken for identification purposes is a violation of someones human rights? After reading the article I failed to notice the part that said you have to do this, you can always choose not to come to the U.S.. What about the right of the United States to require those who enter her borders to identify themselves? I think this is a pretty minor request all things considered. Have you ever traveled to the middle east? Did you know that most arab countries will not even allow you in if you have an Israeli stamp in your passport? Identification of those who wish to cross into this country should have been stringently enforced a long time ago, traditionally we have had some of the easiest borders to cross in the world, look at where that's gotten us. Maybe you should take a look at some of the border towns we have here in Texas, Ca. Ariz. and New Mexico, people are streaming across faster than the INS can keep up with them, many are just seeking a better way of life and are unwilling to do what's necessary to get that legally. But there are others who come here solely to commit crimes. I suppose since bashing the USA is the "cool" thing to do these days, none of that matters. For what it's worth, I didn't vote on it either. But I support it and I also think that when it comes to our borders if you don't live here you don't get a say in how we police them. If ya don't like it take your vacation someplace else. Like North Korea.

[whitecrow]

Are you seriously suggesting that having your picture and fingerprint taken for identification purposes is a violation of someones human rights? After reading the article I failed to notice the part that said you have to do this, you can always choose not to come to the U.S..

1. My photo is on my Passport. If you want to know what I look like, here it is. You do NOT need to scan me into the terrorist database.
2. There is NO NEED WHATSOEVER to fingerprint me, I have committed no crime, nor have you evidence to believe that I *may* have committed a crime. Is not being American a crime?

What about the right of the United States to require those who enter her borders to identify themselves? I think this is a pretty minor request all things considered. Have you ever traveled to the middle east? Did you know that most arab countries will not even allow you in if you have an Israeli stamp in your passport? Identification of those who wish to cross into this country should have been stringently enforced a long time ago, traditionally we have had some of the easiest borders to cross in the world, look at where that's gotten us. Maybe you should take a look at some of the border towns we have here in Texas, Ca. Ariz. and New Mexico, people are streaming across faster than the INS can keep up with them, many are just seeking a better way of life and are unwilling to do what's necessary to get that legally.

Agreed, LK. Every country from the largest to the smallest has the right and necessity to identify everyone who enters her boarders. This is what Passports and Visas (where applicable) are for. There is no need to treat all visitors like criminals.

Yes, I was aware of this. But then again, a lot of Arab countries are warring and some of them are still considered third-world. America is first-world, and according to Bush - not at war. That war's over, remember?

There's no doubt that border control needs to be tightened along the lines in Texas, California, Arizona and New Mexico. There's a shit load of border that can't all be covered by booths and guards.

The INS, however, I feel is a lumbering dinosaur, suffocating under paperwork red tape bullshit. Unwilling to do what's necessary? Have you ever tried even READING the paperwork your country puts out to proposed immigrants? I ofund it confusing. LAWYERS find it confusing. It's difficult, double-speak, costly and rather invasive. I understand a need for being thourough, but it is rather over-zealous. A lot of those aliens are just INCAPABLE of AFFORDING all the pointless, endless expenses your goverment imposes on possible (underline that, you can pay all this money and STILL not get in) immigrants.

But there are others who come here solely to commit crimes. I suppose since bashing the USA is the "cool" thing to do these days, none of that matters. For what it's worth, I didn't vote on it either. But I support it and I also think that when it comes to our borders if you don't live here you don't get a say in how we police them. If ya don't like it take your vacation someplace else. Like North Korea.

Yes, there are those that come *here* solely to commit crimes. And you can't stop them. You could take a blood and semen sample and it won't stop them. NOTHING will stop the determined ones who hate your country from damaging it.

I'm not trying to be "cool" LK, I'm voicing my opinion on what I feel is an important issue. Treating anyone, innocent or guilty - without probable cause as a criminal is "arbitrary interference"

Nobody got to vote on this. Nobody got a say in it. That's part of why it's wrong.

And saying that "I don't get a say because I don't live there" is a VERY close minded point of view. I know where you're coming from, but it's not a strong way to live your life. "Foreigners" is what made BOTH our countries, and CONTINUES to make them strong. Ignoring the world-wide voice is ignorant and very, very dangerous.

I'll leave your North Korea quip alone. It's not worth it.

[LizardKing]

That's fine, if you feel that being fingerprinted and having your picture taken on entry to this country is unfair, then once again, go elsewhere. The Govt. and the people are not going to ask your permission or opinion on how we police our borders. If that's closed minded well, ok. I realize that all the security in the world will not stop a determined adversary, that doesn't mean we should just say fuck it and not make an attempt, if nothing else, we can make the bastards have to work for it. As for the war on terror being over, it's not nor will it be in the forseeable future. And I'm terribly sorry if you think that our immigration policies are to strict, but maybe you should consider what would happen if they weren't? Where would America be if we just opened up the borders and let everyone who wanted to come on in! I dunno man, it's already gettin' kinda crowded in here...

In closing WC, I would say that as long as you don't live here, you don't get a say in what we do. You may have an OPINION, but we all know what they say about those. If your really that concerned with how we do things in our country, get that lawyer, fill out the paperwork, do your homework and get in line, if it were easy - everybody'd be here.

[whitecrow]

That's fine, if you feel that being fingerprinted and having your picture taken on entry to this country is unfair, then once again, go elsewhere. The Govt. and the people are not going to ask your permission or opinion on how we police our borders. If that's closed minded well, ok. I realize that all the security in the world will not stop a determined adversary, that doesn't mean we should just say fuck it and not make an attempt, if nothing else, we can make the bastards have to work for it. As for the war on terror being over, it's not nor will it be in the forseeable future. And I'm terribly sorry if you think that our immigration policies are to strict, but maybe you should consider what would happen if they weren't? Where would America be if we just opened up the borders and let everyone who wanted to come on in! I dunno man, it's already gettin' kinda crowded in here...

In closing WC, I would say that as long as you don't live here, you don't get a say in what we do. You may have an OPINION, but we all know what they say about those. If your really that concerned with how we do things in our country, get that lawyer, fill out the paperwork, do your homework and get in line, if it were easy - everybody'd be here.

How would you like it?

It won't take long before the goverment is photographing everyone and fingerprinting everyone, even you LK. Will then, people start clinging onto the 4th Amendment (I think?) and protesting how although it's good enough for visitors, ehy are somehow superior?

I'm not saying, let's just open the gates and say "hey y'all come on in!" But there is a middle gorund where the line between safety and zealot like watchful ness is drawn. We need to find that line and use it, not suddenly start barcoding people.

I *am* filling out the paperwork. I *am* doing all of it, LK. This is, perhaps the most convoluted and difficult thing I've ever done in my entire life. Expensive too, sure maybe I'll feel like I've acheived something when I'm there - but most likely, I'll just feel invaded.

And I'm sure there's room for one crow.

I think the last thing any country wants is inventive and smart terrorists.

I may not get a say, LK. But you do, and you should be more worried. It's less about safety than it is control.

[Mekanikos]

If the middle ground means losing more people to something we can prevent, then I want no part of that.

It's stringent, yes, but I'm military. I've been halfway around the world, in parts of countries that would tie me up for the sheer pleasure of capturing a "US dog."

On those bases, or cities, I appreciate the extra protection of a wall, or someone on that wall, or someone checking the ID of that normal person walking through the gate who has 15lbs of C4 hidden under his shirt.

I appreciate being able to feel safe there. I shouldn't have to worry about some jacknut with a single-minded ambition to destroy half a building, much less half my city, for the purpose of pleasing that imaginary guy in the sky.

It sucks, sure, but, what else can we do?

This isn't soley targeted at you, but if you're going to bitch about the system, provide an alternative.

[whitecrow]

If the middle ground means losing more people to something we can prevent, then I want no part of that.

It's stringent, yes, but I'm military. I've been halfway around the world, in parts of countries that would tie me up for the sheer pleasure of capturing a "US dog."

On those bases, or cities, I appreciate the extra protection of a wall, or someone on that wall, or someone checking the ID of that normal person walking through the gate who has 15lbs of C4 hidden under his shirt.

I appreciate being able to feel safe there. I shouldn't have to worry about some jacknut with a single-minded ambition to destroy half a building, much less half my city, for the purpose of pleasing that imaginary guy in the sky.

It sucks, sure, but, what else can we do?

This isn't soley targeted at you, but if you're going to bitch about the system, provide an alternative.


Points taken, Mek. But the US is not under seige nor under the type of attack that those places are and will be. I know that there are a lot of the world that despise America and Americans for reasons they cannot explain.

I am very anti-military action, so excuse me if I sound offensive, I appreciate the hard work that all the men and women of any armed (or unarmed) service perform on behalf of their country. Willing or not, these people go into hell and back. I could never do it, it goes against my grain.

ID Should be checked. All papers should be verified. You want an alternative? What about what you had before this? The day before it? Before you started ctaloging everyone as a suspected terrorist. Everyone is assumed "guilty" before having to prove their innocence.

I've been to the US (before this was implemented for people from Australia) and I dutifully had my passport barcode scanned, filled out the form(s) and gave my 10 second testimony about why I was there.

I guess they are worried that people could lie about all of this?

Maybe.

But you can "burn" off your fingerprints (temporarily) with citric acid, you can cut your hair, dye your eyebrows and adopt an English accent.

How's it any better?

It makes visitors and immigrants (of which I was and will be) feel opressed and makes your country look untrusting, uninviting and unfriendly.

US Embassy On Fingerprinting Visitors (http://www.usembassy.org.uk/cons_web/faqs/niv/faq_finger.htm#three)

It reads in a prejudiced manner, and makes me wonder what is next.

[kittyroze]

Just a quick thought -- it takes an enormous movement to cause change here in the US. I definitely wouldn't blame inidividual Americans for some of the crazy stuff going on here. Kind of like I wouldn't blame citizens of other countries for some of the crazy stuff they do. There is only so much one person can do to make changes happen. I understand being frustrated with what's going on, but like I said before, there's only so much we can do. I think just dicussing it and being educated on the matter, and doing what you can/feel moved to should suffice for what we can do here on NCT.

[2bSure]

I am with LK here, I really don't see how additional checking measures violates any ones human rights. To get into Israel you practically go through terrorist interrogation, they want to know everything from where you live/work, parent/background info and to where you are staying in Israel. Based on that, the most hated country in the world has never had a successful hijacked plane.
To get to China/Taiwan/Russia you also have to disclose such basic human rights info such as race and religion, why has no one complained to that. Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi practically bans any Jews.

A photo on a passport is useless as it's too easily forged, biometric scanning is the only safe method and for sure Europe will introduce it as well, the only reason they haven't is because of cost.

I personally agree totally with USA changes, it doesn't discern by race or religion but everyone is the same covered. If it stops one terrorist attack, then it's a great measure. For one I have no issue with it and will be happy to come to the USA anytime as seems all other British people I discussed this with.

PS: Which Arab countries are considered third world? I think with an attitude thought like that it's no wonder Arabs hate the West. Sudai, Kuwait, Egypt, Jordan are all pretty impressive countries and surely not catogarised as third world, Even the former Iraq under Saddam was a wealthy country.

[Lilith]

ID Should be checked. All papers should be verified. You want an alternative? What about what you had before this? The day before it? Before you started ctaloging everyone as a suspected terrorist. Everyone is assumed "guilty" before having to prove their innocence.The problem with potential terrorists is that they are typically from countries where IDs can be bought and papers can be forged--and with official stamps if you pay enough or know the right person.

I am not a fan of Bush, and I am also not gung-ho about everything and anything American--in fact, I moved away from there for my own reason. To be honest, the fact that this measure is necessary scares me. However, the measure itself does not. Anyone getting on a plane to/from Israel has been subjected to MORE than 10-second individual interviews with security personnel who have the right to search you and your luggage completely if they think you are the least bit suspicious--and to deny you boarding/detain you if they find anything they don't like. I never minded it myself--I'd rather be photographed and scanned and whatever than have the plane I am on blow up.

I find that if I have nothing to hide (other than the contraband stash of spices that can't be bought in USA, maybe), I don't feel a problem with security measures.

And WC--please don't make out immigrating to USA as such martyrdom. I've done it, Pos has done it, and it never caused us any grief. Forms are boring to fill out, and the applications cost, but heck--imposing those fees is a right that USA has as a country. Bitching about them is just lame. If you don't like immigrating to USA, take your girl and move elsewhere... why isn't she moving to Australia, for example?

[JakeD]

Saudi practically bans any Jews.

Speaking of banning Jews, Gladiator, you're banned. I don't understand how you thought you could be slick and slide by as a new member, but you know what you've done in the past and you know you're not welcome here.

[kittyroze]

Here here. Don't fuck with NCT. We're very protective of our haven.

[LizardKing]

Yeah! What the Kitty said!

* LK gets out his troll-hunting rifle and starts stroking it lovingly...

[kittyroze]

* kittyroze points out that LK is holding a dill pickle

We're also a little nuts here, apparently.

[JakeD]

THAT'S NOT A DILL PICKLE THAT'S MAH COUSIN

DAMN YOU LK WHUT THUH HELL YEW THANK YER DOIN'?!?!?

[LizardKing]

Yes but it's a Savage model 10FP-LE2 Tactical Dill Pickle, chambered in .308 with a 1.5 Lb trigger pull, a 6 x 18 power Burris scope and a free floating stock.

And I am NOT nuts.

* LK wipes the drool offa his chin.

[kittyroze]

See what I mean, man I love this place.

* kittyroze hands LK a bib to catch his drool

[Bassmama]

Yes but it's a Savage model 10FP-LE2 Tactical Dill Pickle, chambered in .308 with a 1.5 Lb trigger pull, a 6 x 18 power Burris scope and a free floating stock.

And I am NOT nuts.

* LK wipes the drool offa his chin.
OH, BABY! Now I AM getting horney!

[whitecrow]

I never minded it myself--I'd rather be photographed and scanned and whatever than have the plane I am on blow up.

I find that if I have nothing to hide (other than the contraband stash of spices that can't be bought in USA, maybe), I don't feel a problem with security measures.

But surely you think that being put on a "database" for "future reference" is scary, Lil?

They fingerprint locksmiths because they are in a position of priveledge. The fingerprint cops for the same reason. The only time they fingerprint citizens is when they are either accused of a crime or volunteered to clear their name. (Do they fingerprint you when you join the military? Mek?)

And many things can skew a biomentric digital photograph. I could wear a wig, grow and colour a beard. I could smear a thin layer of glue on my fingers to partially (but not enough to require rescanning) skew my fingerprints.

Nothing is foolproof, not yet anyway. Build a better mousetrap, they always say? Would you submit your self to DNA screening? Is this Gattaca?

And WC--please don't make out immigrating to USA as such martyrdom. I've done it, Pos has done it, and it never caused us any grief. Forms are boring to fill out, and the applications cost, but heck--imposing those fees is a right that USA has as a country. Bitching about them is just lame. If you don't like immigrating to USA, take your girl and move elsewhere... why isn't she moving to Australia, for example?

I wasn't trying to be a matyr or anything, Lils. I was just trying to illustrate that it's not a cakewalk, and to me, personally, is very invasive. And govermental fees and red tape are the RIGHT of any country, true - but is it part of the responsibility of it, or merely just a way of putting off poor people? Or less fortunate?

And moving to the US is a decision we made together and are going to do. I, personally see the process that I have to go through very laboured and over zelous. That's my opinion. If you don't like it, ignore it, or argue your opinion. Don't call me names.

[Ice Man]

Oh please, my photo is on my driver liscense. My finger prints are in a database. I travel worldwide and have been subjected to many different security tactics in different countries. Do I feel violated or as if my rights have been taken away? You are damn right I do. Who do I blame? Do I blame my government for trying to protect my family? Hell no, I do not. Do I blame the asshole terrorist worldwide reaking havoc in politics today. You are damn right I do. Do I blame the activists so worried about their own little secrets that they blindly condem a whole nation for it's government protecting them. This ain't the city park, bro. This is the United States of America. The land of the free and the brave. Forgive me for ranting as I am very Patriotic. I am the one who will meet the invasion with my array of firearms. I am the man who stand in my yard to protect my family. I am the enemy of terrorist. I am the target of terrorist. I am America.

[Bassmama]

Yo- Icey- he wasn't dissing the WHOLE government or the individual citizen- he was dissing the red tape & the beurocratic (sp??) bullshit that this government is prone to- 'specially the INS. Sounded to me like he was at a point of crisis when he wrote his message. You can't tell me you agree with EVERYTHING the government does? I know I don't. See the other thread about this subject, too. EVERYONE deserves a 'piss & moan' session occaisionally. (We've all had 'em- haven't we???? Ahem! :rolleyes: )

[Lilith]

WC, first of all, I don't see where I called you names. I said you present the US immigration process as 'martyrdom'--invasive and difficult and costly and all that. So please don't put words in my mouth--I attempt to say what I mean, not imply things. And I don't have a reason to call you names, because even though I don't agree with your blowing up over it, I like you as a person.

Next point--is it a way to bar poor people from immigrating? I don't think it is, otherwise US would have no 'refugee' immigration policy--they take in people that they have to later take care of, from unprivileged countries. So no, it's not a way to keep 'poor people' out, or they wouldn't do that.

However, when people from relatively affluent places (Western Europe, Australia, etc.) wish to move to USA, there is a need to assure they won't be a liability to the state (remember, you being let into a country is a privilege, NOT a right!), and that you can pay your way--or the person inviting you to USA can.

My fingerprint (at least one) was on my drivers' license. So was my photograph. It's also in my passport. And those who join the military get fingerprinted too, afaik. A gazillion of my blood samples are on official records in a variety of places in the world--so there's your DNA scanning. I don't care how many ways one can fool the photographing and fingerprints, but they still help. You seem to feel a lot of things (like security measures) are invasive. Sure, you're entitled to your opinion--and the country authorities are entitled to theirs. God forbid you ever decide to visit Israel--how invasive will you think THOSE procedures, I don't want to imagine.

As far as myself, I'd rather be safer. Heck, if stripping naked every time I get on the plane helped guarantee that no passanger has a bomb, I'd strip first and board the damned flying machine in the buff.

About your allusion to Gattaca--I saw the movie. No, it's not Gattaca, because no one judges you on the content of your DNA--and I would welcome DNA being used for identification, because THEN people won't be able to forge things easily--and don't give me references from the movie, because the guy would have gotten caught 10 times before tomorrow if he really tried the whole blood and urine bullcrap in real life. I'd rather terrorists' DNA was IN the computers--that way the fucks wouldn't be able to use friends to cover their asses and get them in and out of the country on fake papers.

[entipy]

A lot of those aliens are just INCAPABLE of AFFORDING all the pointless, endless expenses your goverment imposes on possible (underline that, you can pay all this money and STILL not get in) immigrants.

If someone is incapable of immigrating to USA, perhaps they should investigate immigrating to a different country. If it's something one wants badly enough, I'm sure they can find ways to make it happen.


Will then, people start clinging onto the 4th Amendment (I think?) and protesting how although it's good enough for visitors, ehy are somehow superior?

Everyone is assumed "guilty" before having to prove their innocence.

I think what's important to remember here, WC, is that these are rights that are afforded to American citizens. Anyone who steps into this country is not and should not (IMO) be afforded those same rights. As Lil said, being allowed into another country is a privilege, not a right.

Personally, I would have nothing against having my picture taken or being fingerprinted. I would draw the line at stripping down and flying in the buff. I'll leave that for Lils! LOL.

I have nothing to hide, and the government already knows more about me and interferes in my life more than I would like. However, I see that as a small price to pay for the opportunities I have here.

[Bassmama]

I hear they are starting to do retinal or some other eye readings. How are terrorists going to get around that?

A hospital I worked at had a hand scanner- you had to scan in & scan back out. For all I know, the government has that, too.

[Evilpoptart]

The way I see it, its just another means of control. I've read 1984 too many times for my own good. Are we being cataloged? I'm sorry, but the more "security measures" this country installs, the farther the slide into oblivion our and new citizens rights go. As for Fuck the USA...I Think we need to learn a few lessons from people greater then us...

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism."
- President Thomas Jefferson

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from the government.
- Thomas Paine

"A President is impeachable if he attempts to subvert the Constitution".
-- President James Madison

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither."
- Ben Franklin

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
- Edmund Burke

Ok enough quotes, but....you see, the people important of this country's founding and continued exsistence, even when it was is doubt, saw this coming. We are taking steps backward, and no one is doing anything about it. I'm scared, really scared, more then I've ver been in my life. I Don't wann ahave to move to Death Valley to avoid the Gestapo goon squads that are sure to follow directives like these. A Vote for Bush is a vote for totalitarianism and oppression, in this country and others around the world.

[whitecrow]

I am very passionate about social liberties and anythign that contravenes these liberties I see as a corruption of basic human values. That's the way I am.

I've got nothing to hide, scan my retina, fingerprint and dick size, I've got no criminal record and don't intend to have one. I'm a peacenik, a hippie, a fucking socialist.
I will be submitting my fingerprint, my eyeballs, my politcal affiliation and my armpit stains if I have to. This is the nature of the beast - this is what the U.S wants out of me, then cool, whatever, take all the nostril hairs I have while your at it.

It won't be long until everywhere is doing this, protecting from terrorists.

We are willing to surrender our liberties for more protection (read: Patrior Act, Parts I & II) that's the consensus.

It's not *my* opinion and it's not my way.

Iceman. I respect you as a person and as a friend, I understand your patriotism (I never did until I met and loved an American. Australians, we're not like that) and respet it. You love (and so do *I*) America and you want her to be great.

So do I.

We just have different visions.

That is the nature of freedom and democracy.

Lil, I like you as a person ,too you are intelligent, sassy and informative. We don't agree on everything and that's what makes this place dynamic. I guess we agree to disagree.

Enty,
Once again, your love and respect is obvious and you should be proud. I hope you can understand my feelings like I do yours.

EPT,
As always your view is interesting and worthwhile.