School children as hostages

[warza bidul]

I'm appaled, disgusted by how the siege ended in Besian. More than three hundred people died when the siege ended. Within a school that can hold 1000 students over 300 people have died after some explosions occured and gunfire continued. A roof collapsed onto the children inside and others tried to run out. They were deprived of water for at least two days and many of them are under shock at this moment in time. Families are hoping that there children are still alive and the hospitals are struggling with almost 700 hundred victims.

What kind of group takes children hostage on their first day at school and ends it in such carnage.

Apart from the terrorists themselves what kind of situation is there in Chechnya to encourage such actions. This is the lowest form of terrorism. They are cowards to have used such a location for a hostage situation.

It's a terrible thing to happen.

[Augustus]

Well its a pretty rough situation in Chechnya. It's always good to remember in these situations that terrorism is not an ideology, its a tool of the weak. It's used by people who have no conventional means of warfare, because attacking the unguarded portions of society is simply easy. It's disgusting, but its a natural evolution of warfare.

The Chechen cause is basically a nationalist one, wanting indepence from Russia. They've used some brutal murder techniques in the past, and the Russian government has been pretty good at responding using equally brutal techniques.

The people who use such tactics are disgusting, but there will never be a change until people start understanding the underlying causes to this anger and working to change it. It's the same with any uprising in the world today: the palestinians, the chechens, the islamic fundamnentalists (in a broader uprising against "the west"). The thing is, these uprisings don't work. The chechens can't beat the russians. The palestinians can't beat the israelis. Osama's henchmen can't beat everyone (except apparently the spaniards), but they can sew more destruction, causing more hardship and in such prolong the life of their cause.

[Amaurote]

It's political stalemate. I don't think anyone was surprised by the chaos that succeeded - amazing force, brutality and disregard for human life has long been a hallmark of Russian political life. I was also a little peturbed by the lines in Putin's speech immediately following his "The weak are trampled upon" quote:

"Some want to cut off a juicy morsel from us while others are helping them.

They are helping because they believe that, as one of the world's major nuclear powers, Russia is still posing a threat to someone, and therefore this threat must be removed.

And terrorism is, of course, only a tool for achieving these goals."

I think there's a degree of context I'm missing here, possibly because I'm reading from an extracted speech over at the BBC's site - I'm not sure what people here make of it, but it almost appears as it he's blaming his political opponents and neighhouring states for the debacle, or suggesting that the Chechen cause is simply a cipher for anti-Russian interests. Which is itself disturbing.

[warza bidul]

Putin is known for that. It's obvious that he's always getting the blame to fall onto someone else. Blame to Putin is like water on a duck's back. Let it fall off onto someone else. It's part of the reason he's managed to secure such high voting results a few months ago.

[LizardKing]

Are you seriously suggesting that Putin is to blame for these terrorist acts? Terrorists are subhuman filth who consider violence as a means to an end. These people subscribe to one political/religous ideology only - Hate. it doesn't matter if it's disguised as nationalism, religon or ethnic cleansing, it all comes down to the same damn thing, hatred and the willingness to commit any act no matter how deplorable to advance "The Cause". Giving these "people" a pass by suggesting that the actions are somehow justifiable is not only naive, but almost complicit. In other words by not condemning this kind of violence one condones and encourages it. I hope I have misunderstood your post and if so, please clarify, because I have a huge problem with the "It's our fault they hate us" crowd.

[Amaurote]

Far be it for me to answer for raf, but as vile and horrible as this is, violence is a means to an end: the terrorists who made up this party aren't democrats, they're fanatics, and they're undoubtedly calculating on on winning international opinion, but on undermining Vladimir Putin and his successors. They live in a state of war anyway.

Also, and as adept and able as Putin has been so far in steering his country towards something approaching a presidential democracy, he isn't exactly blameless when it comes to the context for this kind of violence - I can't remember the exact words, perhaps Pos or Lil can provide them, but I seem to remember that when he was asked for his opinion on the Chechens during his first presidential campaign, his response was something along the lines of "Fuck Chechnya". That doesn't make him an accessory before the fact of yesterday's horrorshow, but it does demonstrate his sense of priorities.

[Poseidon]

I can't confirm it but it would sound like something Putin would say.

[Diva]

Here's an interesting article (http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j010300.html) I found on the web about Putin and the Chechens.

I also found the article where Putin threatens to "waste [the Chechens] while they sit in their outhouses (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2002/11/item20021113013050_1.htm)".

[warza bidul]

I am suggesting Putin does nothing to help control this situation. I also suggest that since he controls the media I do not believe anything that comes from official sources.

[LizardKing]

That's an interesting statement Warza, I'm curious as to how you think he should have reacted, how would you react in his situation? Bear in mind that the russians have no elite counter-terrorist units and about the closest they can come to this is the spetznaz who are trained to kill everybody and sort 'em out later. Other than requesting tactical and professional help from the west (which ain't gonna happen) I don't see much else he could have done in this situation. What do you guys think?

[Lilith]

LK, you are correct. I would wager that the spetznaz is trained for more than just that, but I do doubt they are the world's top hostage-rescue specialists. It's just not something Russians have had to do a lot of till recently. It is horrible that the situation has gotten this bad (Russians did a better job during the hostage-taking of Bolshoi Theatre a year ago or so), but I would say they did the best they could in a completely shitty situation with a school full of kids taken hostage by lowlife assholes who do not value human life above their "cause".

[Augustus]

The Russians have always been better at killing everyone and sorting them out later (see Grozny).

[Amaurote]

I always feel this incredible mixture of revulsion, horror, despair and grudging admiration when I see footage of Russian security operations, which I suspect most people share. When that APC lumbered up and a platoon of impassive soldiers deployed out I just went "Oh dear". When they aired the interview of the terrorist being hauled in by cops the day after, begging and screaming that "I am a father, of course I felt for the children, I didn't pull the trigger, I tell you I didn't pull the trigger", I found myself looking at the cops around him and thinking, "Y'know, there is no-one on the planet I would less like to be than you right now."