View Full Version : WMD: Weapons of Mass Distraction
I had a debate with a chick a while back who said she KNEW they had WMD and was terrified that it would reach her in Arizona. She was adamant with every report and actually quite cocky.
I didn't give Saddam that much credit. We created the guy, supplied him with weapons and supported him against Iran. Without the US's 'help', he wouldn't have been able to fight his way out of a paper bag.
Now that Bush and Blair are finally conceding that there probably never were any Weapons of Mass Destruction... I would like to know how you felt in the beginning.
kittyroze
01-31-04, 11:58AM
I've been saying there probably aren't WMDs all along. It would make the US look better if we found them...g*d, I really wish we would find em...so we don't look like aggressive jerks who invaded Iraq for no reason...but I don't believe they're there...or ever were.
whitecrow
02-01-04, 03:29PM
The only WMD's were in W's head. Or maybe 20 Years ago. What a waste of lives, money and trust.
Sterling
02-02-04, 01:12PM
I thought it was possible that they existed, but I was always suspicious that we never got much hard evidence. Now it appears that either (a) the intellgence services are incompetent, (b) Bush lied and exaggerated, or (c) both. My money is on (c).
Incidentally, I hope that Republicans are going to be foaming at the mouth and demanding to impeach Bush. After all, if they did the same to Clinton after he lied about a blow-job, you'd think that lying about the reasons for taking the country to war might be a teensy bit more serious, no?
I would think so. After all, Clinton's lie just killed some sperm.... Bush's lie is killing people.
I look at it like this. He is taking care of a problem that his dad should have finished. I was there the first time. Talk about a waste of lives. That was it. What was accomplished? I personally don't agree with his politics yet, I deeply appreciated my presence and pain in that country being validated.
In some strange way, Thank You Sir for sticking to your guns. Don't let these pillow biting conservative liberals get you down.
Please don't feel offended unless you are a pillow biting conservative liberal. In case you don't know. That is someone who wants everything and isn't willing to pay for it. If you are one of these particular individuals, you can kiss my lilly white butt.
Anger management is really paying off. Don't you think so?
Sterling
02-05-04, 06:41AM
Whether or not there may have been some other legitimate reason to go to war is not the issue here.
The issue is that the reason given, the reason that was used to sell the American, British, and other people on the idea, was that Iraq definitely possessed weapons of mass destruction, and that these were therefore an immediate threat to the region and the world as a whole.
Turns out that those claims were bullshit, and it seems entirely plausible that the politicians knew that.
In other words, the issue here is lying to the country about the reasons for putting American and British lives at risk.
If George Bush or Tony Blair wanted to make the case that war was justified to 'finish the job', or any other reason, then they should have made that case and saw where it got them. But they didn't. They made a bogus case based on non-existent WMDs. That is the problem.
And I'll again remind rabid conservatives that they seemed to think that lying about a freaking blow-job was sufficient to want to throw the President out of office, so sure lying about the reasons for taking the country to war is just a teensy bit more reprehensible.
Originally posted by Desciple
I look at it like this. He is taking care of a problem that his dad should have finished.
No, we should have finished it the first time, but didnt. Once someone has done his time in jail, we do not have to right to incarcerate them once again by lies because we werent happy with the original sentence. If you feel that is okay you need to get some more sunblock on.
Originally posted by Desciple
I was there the first time. Talk about a waste of lives. That was it. What was accomplished? I personally don't agree with his politics yet, I deeply appreciated my presence and pain in that country being validated.
We kicked him out of a neighboring country he had invaded. THAT was the purpose and it was accomplished. My brother and then boyfriend were there, too.
Originally posted by Desciple
In some strange way, Thank You Sir for sticking to your guns. Don't let these pillow biting conservative liberals get you down.
Please don't feel offended unless you are a pillow biting conservative liberal. In case you don't know. That is someone who wants everything and isn't willing to pay for it.
Desciple, our President lied to us to fulfill his own agendas. He sent men and women of our military to die for a lie. He has no honor. I dont want everything... just the truth. Our President should be able to give us that. And he didnt stick to his guns. He hid behind the guns of men and women who died for a lie.
My brother, a National Guard MEDIC, spent 8 months in the middle of Baghdad acting as a freaking gunner because the SOB of a President we have now lied to fulfill his own agenda.
So why didn't the commander in chief of the armies command them on the field of battle, huh?
Liar. And coward, too.
Okay, here goes the story as I understand it.
The CIA (we know who that is, wait they are secret) gave the government a report validating evidence of WMDs in the country of IRAQ. The President acted upon information given to him. I would have done the same thing, epescially in the state of mind the country was in. Before the first war, there were also documents validating WMD were present in that country. These were found. Not in the manner of chemical warfare. An artillery piece was in construction that would allow the possibility of arms being fired into other countries. It was the worlds largest artillery piece. NOW, as we jump to conclusions and believe what the all seeing MEDIA tells us and place judgement upon anyone else based on the interpretations of someone else of the occurrance. Let us take a step back and look at ourselves. Can we be accused of having bad character for anything that we have done in the past? If you say yes, I definately would like to meet you. You have got to be the closest thing to JESUS walking this earth. I have spoken therefore, it is said. Have a good day.
1) Jesus never claimed to have not sinned.
2) If I knew someone that close to Jesus (your Jesus, the one who supposedly hadn't sinned), I'd try to have them committed for their own good. Or run away screaming, not sure.
3) Let me guess--you support Bush because if he and his republican fundamentalist Christian cronies had it their way, we'd have prayer reinstituted in public schools and have a ban on all abortion procedures in this country, right?
Sterling
02-05-04, 09:31AM
NOW, as we jump to conclusions and believe what the all seeing MEDIA tells us and place judgement upon anyone else based on the interpretations of someone else of the occurrance. Let us take a step back and look at ourselves. Can we be accused of having bad character for anything that we have done in the past? If you say yes, I definately would like to meet you. You have got to be the closest thing to JESUS walking this earth. I have spoken therefore, it is said.
Ah yes, I remember the Republicans saying exactly the same thing about the whole Clinton blow-job debacle, and that we shouldn't be too hard on the guy because, hey, who hasn't sinned. Oh wait, they didn't...
When the President now says that "he wants to know the truth", or Tony Blair claims that he never knew that the "45 minute" claim related to battlefield and not strategic weapons, I have to think to myself: WTF?
I mean, really, is the defence now that the President or Prime Minister can't have lied because they didn't actually know what they were talking about?
Shouldn't the President have "found out the truth" before sending the country to war? Shouldn't the Prime Minister have understood exactly what weapons were being talked about?
Either they didn't know, in which case they weren't asking hard enough questions. Or they did know, and willingly distorted and selectively quoted, in order to sell the policy of war to the country. In either case, they are not fit to be leaders.
I love it............
I don't support either one. I am just tired of hearing the behind the screen, on the couch critics who happen to know everything. I will give them credit for being intelligent as many are and have theories and ideas well suited for an intelligent debate. However, I have yet to see anyone proud of anything that their country is doing.
We took prayer from school. No one happy but the atheist.
We took down the rebel flag in Georgia. No one happy but "blacks" (pardon the word usage, please)
Many other things by one person starting a argument with intelligent conversation and others jumping on the band wagon.
IT MAKES ME SICK..................!
Originally posted by Desciple
We took prayer from school. No one happy but the atheist.
We took down the rebel flag in Georgia. No one happy but "blacks" (pardon the word usage, please)
First of all, how do you know that only the atheists are happy? How many zen buddhists and jews have you met whose children no longer have to pray to Jesus in school? Are they all really really unhappy about it?
Second, considering that they were the ones oppressed, I would expect that African Americans are happy in that state. Everyone else there should also be happy as constitutional equality has now been served.
____________________________
If I were you, I would sure as hell watch what I say on the subject further however--you are treading close to racist and religiously-discriminatory ground. And before you say "but I said pardon...", I am not slamming you on word usage, I am slamming you on your attitude.
Sterling
02-05-04, 06:42PM
However, I have yet to see anyone proud of anything that their country is doing.
It is not necessary to be proud of everything your country is doing in order to still have pride in your country. There is no contradiction in being proud of things your country is doing, and yet still criticising your leaders when they make questionable or unethical decisions.
Being critical of your leadership is a democratic tradition. It's patriotic to question authority. If it wasn't we'd be living in a totalitarian state.
We took prayer from school. No one happy but the atheist.
I would imagine that, at a minimum, any non-Christian would probably be happy. That's a much larger set than atheists. There's also this little thing in the constitution about separation of church and state, isn't that important anymore?
We took down the rebel flag in Georgia. No one happy but "blacks" (pardon the word usage, please)
I was pretty happy about it, and I'm not black.
LOL,
I love it..............
I am an American, I fought for this country so you may have the right to openly speak, worship, and have equality to your neighbor.
I stand for traditional family values. I believe that every man should spend at least two years in the military. I believe that a husband and wife are equal as they play different by equal rolls in the family. I think the husband should help out around the house. I think that if she wishes, the wife can have a successfull career. I believe children should receive the proper punishment for their delinquencies. There is a time and place for everything. I don't believe you should whip off your belt in public and spank a child. I don't believe that you should ever use your hand in any form of punishment. I believe children should repsect their parents. I believe parents should respect their children and teach them morals and values. I believe this is dying from our "Family Values" as a whole. I beieve in freedom of expression if you can define intelligently what you are expressing. I believe that everyone is capable of having an opinion. I believe that my opinion may not always correct but, it is mine. I stand behind what I say and my expressions. If I am wrong, so be it. These are my views and thoughts and I am expressing my anger at those who have their nose over my fence and judging me by what happens in my yard.
I have lived in Georgia all of my life with exception to the years that I spent in the Marine Corps. I take pride in my heritage. I love my flag. And before you call me a racist in form or fashion, you don't know me or my friends. Many of my friends feel the same as I do in that it was stupid. I used to never say a word about it until one of my best friends brought it up and I found that his opinion was much the same as mine. He was born and raised in Georgia, educated at a state university and thinks that there are more important things to correct than what flag flies over the state capitol. By the way, he classifies his race as Black American. He says, that he was born here. I respect that with great passion. The people who started this whole flag thing were not even born here. What if the arabic community rose up and said because we attacked Iraq under false accusations, the ole' Stars and Stripes offended them. They are citizens. Should we change the symbol of our country based on their feelings?
You want to talk equality, where is the caucasion, asian, indian or any other heritage history month?
Start a college fund for another heritage, named as such and find what sort of battle you will find.
Imigrate to another country and find what language you are required to speak to survive. I don't speak spanish, french, italian or any others. Yet to communicate with the people who run the gas station two blocks from my house well, I had to learn phrases in arabic. At my summer house, the house keeper speaks a form of spanish but she is from Cuba and very hard to understand. People come to America for the "Big Dream" of freedom. Hooray! That's exactly what I fought for, "Freedom".
I have enjoyed sharing my views and opinions. They are just that. If you are offended, I apologize. This is how I feel. We are taking things way to far to apease the "feelings" of a view by not standing up for what we believe in and voting "yes or no" on the issues at hand.
Someone said in this forum in so many words that if you don't vote, then you should keep your trap shut. You have given up your rights to an open opinion. I am also a unionized worker and I will fight you to the death on that. (Not literally, silly).
Sterling
02-06-04, 08:12AM
Nobody is offended, but you make such sweeping generalisations. When you say that the only people who think a certain way must be black, or must be atheists, those are generalisations that are clearly wrong. Don't be surprised when you get called on it.
The only thing I suspect that people are finding offensive here is that you seem to equate 'pride in your country' with holding exactly the same set of views as you do. It's possible to have pride in one's country, and yet still be able to criticise it's leaders or the policies of the current government. That's a fundamental part of freedom, and I'm sorry you can't see it.
Um... ok. You also support the change of "evolution" to "biological changes over time" in schools in your state? I hear they are debating that now...
_________________
I am a citizen of USA. I have lived here for 10 years, and my brother fought for this country. Neither of us is Christian. Both of us vote. We have lived in other countries (and yes, learned other languages, like *gasp!* English) before. I am also leaving this country soon, and hopefully for good.
The above is a collection of statements that mean absolutely nothing out of context, much like what you wrote, but I hope they address some of your misconseptions about who you are debating with.
I grant you, you can type a lot, but your post lacks logic and structure, and the only coherent thing in it is the fact that you enjoy sharing your bigoted views and that you fought for your country and freedom (you and a few hundred thousand others). So what about those black people who fought for it, too? What about those who are not Christian? Are they any less American than your much self-loved unionized self?
So what was your point, again?
First of all, I agree with almost everything you said in your last post. That being said:
Originally posted by Desciple
I am an American, I fought for this country so you may have the right to openly speak, worship, and have equality to your neighbor.
We know you were in the military. I could not go in because of health problems. That makes me no less American or proud of my country. While you did a tour of duty, I have been fighting for years and will continue to fight for the rights of our citizens. I dont think it matters if you are in the military or not. We fight against a growing threat to our rights every day. We fight as americans. We fight as members of the human race.
Military does not necessarily make you a better person. There are thieves, rapists, murderers and abusers who are in the military. Bush was in the military and spent it on vacation or campaigning. I'm surprised that you support a man who disrespected the military. Think about what would happen if more soldiers thought like Bush:
What if any of them chose to do what Bush did back in the early 70s -- just not show up? I've seen Republican defenders of Bush this week say, “Yeah, but he made up the time later.” So, can today's National Guardsmen do the same thing -- just say, when called up to go to Iraq, "Um, I'm not going to show up, I'll make up the time later!"? Can you imagine what would happen? Of course, none of them are the son of a Congressman, like young Lt. Bush was back in 1972.
Thank goodness there arent many soldiers like him. I fight him on the Patriot Act. I fight him on his laws based on HIS religion. I fight the fact that I am considered a terrorist because I dont blindly follow him. I am not religious, Desciple. But I PRAY we can overcome the damage he has done to both America and the world.
Sterling
02-06-04, 11:55AM
It's pretty interesting that the Republican leadership is awash with draft-dodgers and others who managed to wriggle away from doing actual military service (remind me again what Bush and Cheney were doing during Vietnam?). While the leading Democratic candidates feature a highly decorated war-hero and a four-star general.
Now, I personally don't think military service is that important, but supposing that you do: Why on earth would you support a weasel like Bush? Especially when there are candidates with real military backgrounds to choose from?
To George Bush, going to war is something that other people do. People who aren't rich, and don't have influential parents. Sending American soldiers to die is fine, because he's never been involved in war himself. And he's pretty gung-ho about it.
Contrast with, say, Wesley Clark. Someone who might actually know what the fuck he's talking about when it comes to war. And he's a lot more cautious about the whole thing.
Funny, that.
Okay,
Apparently, I didn't make myself clear. I tend to do that from time to time. This whole thing started over........geez......I can't remember now. I do not support President Bush and his politics. I do however appreciate that Sadaam is finally out of power and his reign of terror on his own people is over. I was there, collecting the bodies of Kurdish refugees that were murdered by Sadaam with chemical warfare. Have you ever place yourself in a big blue suit and breathed from a tank while picking up in your arms the decaying bodies of children. Odds are that it's a BIG FAT NO to that question that you will respond. That is how all of this got started. Questioning the intent of our elected President. Someone had to vote for him, I didn't. His father is the reason of why I am not still in. Military cutbacks my butt.
grant you, you can type a lot, but your post lacks logic and structure, and the only coherent thing in it is the fact that you enjoy sharing your bigoted views and that you fought for your country and freedom (you and a few hundred thousand others). So what about those black people who fought for it, too? What about those who are not Christian? Are they any less American than your much self-loved unionized self?
Did I ever say that you were incorrect in your opinions or views? I believe not. Name calling increases the chance of your actual intelligence level showing it's ugly head. I prefer not to do such things.
Have a great day.
I have spoken therefore, it is SAID!
And I learn alittle every day. Thanks Dive and Sterling for your intelligent conversation.
Diva, you are the greatest. I don't care what Boozer says about you...............(LAUGHING).........j/k It was all good.
Gods, what an ego!
YOU have spoken therefore it is said? Get over yourself!
Implying that I lack intelligence because I pointed out lack of logic and structure in your posts (that you admit yourself by the way in the next post "I didn't make myself clear"--no, you did not), will not get you far. Next time, structure your arguments instead of writing a lot of patriotic-christian-white-male-military propaganda.
You know next to nothing about me. Yes, I can get a gas mask on in 5 seconds. Yes, I have seen death. Yes I have been in war situations, and they were on my land, not somewhere else. I have probably seen more war than you have. Your ignorance is not an excuse.
_________________
So now that we have that cleared up, aren't you going to even try to justify your religiously-descriminatory and openly racist remarks made in your third post on this thread?
You really need to seek help with your temper. My phrase, is nothing. I have said that for so many years and it started as a joke.
As far as I am concern my dear, to quote someone famous: "Frankly, I don't give a damn" about what you think. Maybe I wasn't clear about what I intended to say and I have much more important things to do than sit around arguing views via a keyboard and monitor. So, pardon me whilst I wipe the stinch of conversing with what has to be the most self righteous pain in the arse that I have ever spoken with.
You want to discuss politics, race, religion or any other thing with me..............I suggest you think twice about who you decide to call out..............
I have spoken, therefore it is SAID!!!!!!!!!
Diva, how do you put her on ignore?
Nevermind, I fiqured it out. Thanks anyway.
Thaum1el
02-09-04, 06:17AM
Regardless if there were WMDs around or not, I'm just happy they kicked Saddam out.
Originally posted by Desciple
You really need to seek help with your temper.
Hmmmm... Look who's calling the kettle black?
Originally posted by Desciple
My phrase, is nothing. I have said that for so many years and it started as a joke.
Maybe so, but she has not seen you say it before. And I believe it's a joke because of how arrogant it sounds, right? Therefore someone who hasnt spoken with you may assume you are being serious.
Originally posted by Desciple
Maybe I wasn't clear about what I intended to say and I have much more important things to do than sit around arguing views via a keyboard and monitor.
The whole idea of a forum is to discuss views. If you do not have time to discuss them, then dont start.
Originally posted by Desciple
You want to discuss politics, race, religion or any other thing with me..............I suggest you think twice about who you decide to call out..............
You make no sense with this statement. You are unable to discuss a simple topic, have made unclear statements and will not even explain your statements. I think you should say to think twice because you will not finish what you start.
Lets take a breather on this. I dont want words like stench or racist flying around. If you choose to make a statement on a debate, then I would appreciate you backing it up. All that's happening here is insulting, and I will not tolerate it.
I would like the next response to be about the subject. Please contact me with all other concerns and issues in this thread.
Sterling
02-09-04, 11:28AM
Regardless if there were WMDs around or not, I'm just happy they kicked Saddam out.
It's arguable that there was a moral case for toppling the Saddam regime because it was so odious. However, if that's your bar, then why not go and invade Iran, Saudia Arabia, North Korea and China while you're at it?
More significantly, it's important that the public is given the right to decide based on the correct information. If you believe that there is a strong moral case for invading a country, then it should stand on its own. If you have to start making up and exaggerating evidence in order to get people to go along, then perhaps your case isn't as strong as you thought?
Fundamentally, this isn't so much about whether the war was right or wrong, as it is about whether our elected leaders should lie and exaggerate to the country in order to push their policies through.
Originally posted by Sterling
Fundamentally, this isn't so much about whether the war was right or wrong, as it is about whether our elected leaders should lie and exaggerate to the country in order to push their policies through.
Agreed, they shouldn't lie to the public for any reason. There are possible exceptions, but they are so unlikely, that they don't warrant discussion here.
Sterling, I think that Thau's remark was made light-heartedly without reading the discussion much--not due to ignorance, but by clicking "add reply" after voting on the poll.
I believe there were WMD. Maybe I've just been brainwashed by the military to believe whatever they say - or maybe it's just that they had them. I don't think it matters too much - I love my country and I am extremely patriotic, whether they had WMD or not I would still fight and I would still believe that what needs to be done needs to be done, we got Saddam out of there, and now we are a little safer (for the time being). We will always have terrorists, we will always have people who hate us, but I strongly believe in standing tall and having love for your country and the men and women who are dying to make it a better place.
Sorry - went off a little...
Originally posted by Fire
Sorry - went off a little...
It's okay, Fire. Everyone has a right to their opinion. It's not about changing peoples' thoughts... just opening up to different ideas. :)
There's nothing wrong with questioning your leaders, though. It's our right. Other countries kill those who opose their government. You are no less patriotic if you question authority. You are looking out for your country's best interest.
Unlike Bush, who decided to take a vacation when duty called... You stood by your oath. You have a different set of rules to abide by, and I respect that. The military takes on the burden of following orders, no matter what.
Sterling
02-09-04, 04:03PM
I think you're mixing up a few things there, Fire.
Why do you believe there were WMD? Don't you think the military has been looking for them? Don't you think they would have told us if they'd found any. I think the simplest possible explaination for why we haven't found them is just that they weren't there to be found.
If you believed the government when they said they thought they were there, why don't you believe them now they admit that they are not?
On the terrorist thing, what has that got to do with Saddam's Iraq? There is no evidence at all that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11 or Al Qeida. Saddam's government in Iraq was a secular one, not Islamic, and so in fact he was very much at odds with Islamic fundamentalists.
The terrorist thing was just a convenient thing for Bush to mention in vaguely the same breath as invading Iraq, hoping that the public would put the two together, despite there really being no good reason to do that.
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