Comics are great...

[hollowearth]

Just found a good news/articles/essay site about comics:
http://www.ninthart.com/

Interviews with Grant Morrison (animal man, doom patrol, invisibles), articles on Alan Moore (watchmen, v for vendetta), Peter Bagge and the heavy Jimmy Corrigan (http://www.fantagraphics.com/artist/acme/acme.html) graphic novel i've just bought. It's good to see intelligent writing on the medium from time to time.

'Tis nearly christmas, and it's snowing heavily here Newcastle, Snow is great, comics are great (http://www.ucomics.com/calvinandhobbes/) :cheesy:

[Amaurote]

I'm quite worried that so many of them seem to genuinely believe in the occult, though: I mean, I love and revere the work of the gnostics, but actually participating in the ritual, ceremonies and community acts would be at least as preposterous and self-defeating as participating in mainstream denominations, or, for example, claiming that Jesus of Nazareth was the Son of God.

Amaurote pre-emptively hides in a crucifix-proof nuclear fall-out shelter..

[hollowearth]

Well, Calvin and Hobbes wouldn't be the same without their fear and awe for Santa.

However...

When you say them are you referring to the reviewers of the comics, or the creators?

Grant Morrison does believe in a kind of magic evolving from Crowley and influenced stylistically by H.P.Lovecraft as far as I can tell - the same kind of thing as is practiced by other writers in the same genre, such as Robert Anton Wilson. Explanations of a sort can be found in some of his books (Cosmic Trigger, Prometheus Rising) and seem to indicate that their use of ritual is psychological in some way rather than magical - essentially, it's used as a prop.

As far as I know, Alan Moore and the rest are content to merely write about the occult.

[Amaurote]

I'm referring to the writers, from facts adduced in an article from the very site you've just recommended -

Camera Obscura (http://www.ninthart.com/display.php?article=177)

- which also notes that Alan Moore worships a snake-deity by the name of Glycon...

I genuinely admire Alan Moore, but this is the sort of thing that repels me somewhat - in much the same way as I respect Conan Doyle, but flinch when people remind me that he fervently believed in the existence of elves and pixies...

The little people, no less. Snake gods. I ask you. Fucking serpentine monstrosities a la Set, or Yig from the Cthulhu Mythos...

For goodness' sake: Did Pyrrho die in vain?

[hollowearth]

Originally posted by Amaurote
The little people, no less. Snake gods. I ask you. Fucking serpentine monstrosities a la Set, or Yig from the Cthulhu Mythos...

For goodness' sake: Did Pyrrho die in vain? [/B]

Fair enough, though I tend to find it more amusing than anything else - I know that Grant Morrison's invisibles material was claimed to be partially autobiographical, hallucinated or channeled. I don't think you could write something like 'The Invisibles' without, um, going there first, belief wise. I'm surprised about Alan Moore, but it doesn't decrease my oppinion of him.

[Diva]

Yay! Hollowearth came out to play! I love those links, hon. Thanks! Another of my favorite comics is BloomCounty. They are even thinking of making it into a movie. I have my reservations about giving comic strip charactors a voice. It takes away from what I thought they would be. You can no longer use your imagination to create the personality, only watch what personality the actor gives it.

http://www.nochicktrix.com/fun/oth/vb/me/bloom.jpg

[Amaurote]

Originally posted by hollowearth
I'm surprised about Alan Moore, but it doesn't decrease my oppinion of him.

No, don't misunderstand me, Hollow - I could never feel anything other than admiration for the mind that could conceive of Rorschach as a character, in particular his prison scenes, or his existential crisis on the child abduction case, or the Ozymandias plot. I'm quite able to find his personal religion absurd or comic without revising my appraisal of Watchmen or V for Vendetta.

However, I do find it a little curious. After all, I remember Ben Clarke [correct me if I'm misremembering the details]relating a story about an exhibition of Alan Moore's in which a fan had asked him the ingenuous but sweet question, "Are any of your characters real?"

To which Alan Moore allegedly replied, in a quaint reversal of the expected touchy-feely response: "No. None of it is real."

V for Vendetta reads as well as ever; however, I'm still a little concerned at the apparent deus ex machina in which Adam Susan is shot by Almond's widow - it makes for a beautiful juxtaposition with the shooting of V by Finch, but there's no real sense that V planned it. Perhaps I'd need to see the complete series rather than the edited collection that comprises V for Vendetta as a graphic novel.

http://home.uchicago.edu/~djm2/quotes/watchmen/rorschach.jpeg

[hollowearth]

Diva: Bloom County looks good, the strip you posted reminds me of calvin and hobbes and their club G.R.O.S.S. (Get Rid Of Slimy GirlS). I'll look out for it.Originally posted by Amaurote
To which Alan Moore allegedly replied, in a quaint reversal of the expected touchy-feely response: "No. None of it is real."
That probably happened... Alan Moore has been known to be less than forthcoming at times, it's possible that he was in a cynical mood and just couldn't be bothered to answer yet another question along the lines of 'where do you get your ideas from'.V for Vendetta reads as well as ever; however, I'm still a little concerned at the apparent deus ex machina in which Adam Susan is shot by Almond's widow - it makes for a beautiful juxtaposition with the shooting of V by Finch, but there's no real sense that V planned it. Perhaps I'd need to see the complete series rather than the edited collection that comprises V for Vendetta as a graphic novel.It's a long time since i've read it, and i'm currently lending it to someone so can't look up the scene i'm afraid. I was under the impression that, far from being edited down, the graphic novel contains more material - the comic was left unfinished for a while, and I think that it was picked up by several publishers during it's run.

[Amaurote]

Maybe someone asked him to pronounce a word containing a lot of 'r's, and he promptly got wiled/riled.

V for Vendetta is still spectacular, but the element of coincidence is never quite clear. I'm sure than Moore intends us to believe that the assassination of Adam Susan was planned - after all, V has access to Fate - but he never so much as hints at a mechanism.

I'm convinced that there are extra episodes out there - Moore includes two in the appendix section, after all, including that spectacular hat-tipping exchange between V and a doorman at a Fascist hotel....

[hollowearth]

I'm convinced that there are extra episodes out there - Moore includes two in the appendix section, after all, including that spectacular hat-tipping exchange between V and a doorman at a Fascist hotel....
There could well be more one offs, but I don't think anything has been removed from the main plot. The hotel one is great I agree - it's completely silent.

[Diva]

Unfortunately I have not seen this comic. What were your two favorite comics growing up?

[Amaurote]

I'm not like Hollowearth, in that there are really only 3 graphic novels that I genuinely admire, and they're all written by Alan Moore - From Hell, Watchmen and V for Vendetta. For the most part I regard it as an inferior genre - it shouldn't be, because Alan Moore has demonstrated how effective, profound and original it can be, but it simply doesn't - in the main - compare to a properly worked out, refined novel, and I'd rather read the original sources than learn about them through Grant Morrison. Moore uses sources, whereas most of the graphic novels I've seen have merely operated as propadeutic guides, adding little or nothing to the pool of ideas.

Having said that, they do have their moments: I grew up with Eagle, while Hollowearth et al were reading proper comics like 2000 AD. Eagle was to some extent redeemed by "Doomlord" and "Dan Dare - Pilot of the Future" - the latter was enjoying something of a renaissance in the 1980s when I was reading it, including some quite spectacularly illustrated Mekon-Dare storylines...

http://members.aol.com/ukhostbill/mekon/mekon08.jpg

[hollowearth]

Originally posted by Amaurote
For the most part I regard it as an inferior genre - it shouldn't be, because Alan Moore has demonstrated how effective, profound and original it can be, but it simply doesn't - in the main - compare to a properly worked out, refined novel, and I'd rather read the original sources than learn about them through Grant Morrison. Moore uses sources, whereas most of the graphic novels I've seen have merely operated as propadeutic guides, adding little or nothing to the pool of ideas.
That's true to an extent, it's certainly true of a lot of Grant Morrison's comics, but there's a more than that: Love and Rockets (http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2001/02/20/hernandez/index.html), Frank Millers "300", or Jimmy Corrigan, for example. Comparing comics to novels though tends to require people to place far too much emphasis on the graphic novel, instead of, well, the monthly comics, and the newspaper strips, which is what comics are traditionally about. I think it's probably correct to say that, on average, it's an inferior medium, but it's also much younger one, and that the economics of the situation have more in common with the music industry, and produces a lot of crap because of this.

Anyways, speaking of crap being produced, as Amaurote says, I used to read 2000AD (http://www.2000adonline.com/), which featured such classics as Zenith, Strontium Dog and Nemesis the Warlock...

[Amaurote]

Yeah - I hate the Batman graphic novels, but Frank Miller's is pretty good; not great, but there are some genuinely great scenes, moments of dialogue and plot reversals.

I also read the reprints of the "Astounding Stories", "Fantastic Stories" from the 1950s which were kicking around for some reason - bizarre, very unpredictable, occasionally twee or unintentionally hilarious, and sometimes great. I'm not quite sure what the background to the reprint issues was, oddly enough, but I have a good ten copies left in my wardrobe.

[Diva]

Amaurote may think he's one up one you with the comics... but you have a way cuter butt... :cheesy: :kissy: ;)

http://www.nochicktrix.com/fun/oth/vb/me/island.jpg

[hollowearth]

Originally posted by Amaurote
Yeah - I hate the Batman graphic novels, but Frank Miller's is pretty good; not great, but there are some genuinely great scenes, moments of dialogue and plot reversals.

I also read the reprints of the "Astounding Stories", "Fantastic Stories" from the 1950s which were kicking around for some reason - bizarre, very unpredictable, occasionally twee or unintentionally hilarious, and sometimes great. I'm not quite sure what the background to the reprint issues was, oddly enough, but I have a good ten copies left in my wardrobe.
That's what I like about comics, it's a pulp medium about imagination and adventure, and when it sticks to what it's best at, things like Watchmen and V for Vendetta get produced - both of which are in (and subverting) the same traditions as the early detective/super hero comics and pulp magazines.

[Amaurote]

Don't encourage him, Diva: any excuse and he gets it out. His arse has been exhibited all the way around Europe and Japan, but even that wasn't enough to tame his exhibitionist propensities - now he's broadcasting it to the world on his website. In fact, he's probably planning a new arse franchize as we speak.

I say No! No! In the name of God, No! to Hollowarse. Down with this sort of thing.
http://www.nochicktrix.com/fun/oth/vb/am/arse.jpg

[hollowearth]

There does seem to be a certain inevitability about these things...

[Amaurote]

Determinism isn't the issue here.

I see a little silhouett-e of an arse, Scaramouche, Scaramouche, can you do the fan-dan-go?

(The members of Queen have formally declined to assert their moral right to be identified as the authors of this lyric)

[hollowearth]

That's very odd amaurote..
Anyway - comics are great!
:cheesy:

[Diva]

You had to go there, didn't you? Bad Am, Bad Am!

The fact that his butt is in FOCUS, impresses me the most! What I don't understand is how many different cameras Hollow used... It's like Batman. He's one hero, with a multitude of costumes and looks. [like how I swung this baby around to comics again?]

[Amaurote]

You're absolutely right, Hollowearth.

And what a great way to round off a great thread!

Days of Our Hollowearths

Hollowearth and Amaurote have been talking shite. Amaurote waves and turns to leave through a door, then suddenly swivels on the ball of his foot to face Hollowearth again.

Amaurote: (Cheesy Grin) Oh, and Hollowearth?

Hollowearth: (Cheesy Grin) Yes?

Amaurote: (Cheesy grin, signals casually towards Hollowearth) Thanks.

Exeunt All.

[Diva]

Yes, Hollow, *right click-save as 'cute ass01'* thank you...

Diva clicks Save, then suddenly swivels her chair around face Amaurote.

Diva: (Cheesy Grin) Oh, and Amaurote?

Amaurote: (Cheesy Grin) Yes?

Diva: (Cheesy grin, signals casually towards Hollowearth) Thanks. :finger:

Exeunt All. Indeed

[Amaurote]

Shouldn't that sequence be

Diva -> File -> Save Ass

?

[Diva]

Why you cheeky bugger! *kicks can, mumbling about how much BETTER Am's response was... Remembers picture that shows cartoon-art-comedy-drama all in one. Feels better. Sticks 'Kick-Me' sticker on Amaurote's pasty arse*

http://www.nochicktrix.com/fun/oth/vb/me/scream.gif

[hollowearth]

:rolleyes: ... sheesh...

[Amaurote]

Originally posted by Diva
Sticks 'Kick-Me' sticker on Amaurote's pasty arse*

I've been wearing one of those for 25 out of the last 27 years, Di. I've been quite fortunate, though: no-one around here can read, so my street-beatings have been relatively few and far between. Still, where there's Spennymoor, there's hope. Now there's something you don't hear every day. I know I don't, anyway.

I've been thinking about Diva's Hollowearth-Batman comparison, and it still has me baffled. I mean, R2D2-Hollowearth, sure, but Batman? The mind boggles. He has many talents, certainly, but he doesn't have pointy ears, a utility belt, a camp adolescent protege or even a utility belt. Nor is he a man of a thousand faces, unless you count 999 of them as him looking pensive/concerned and the 1000th him watching Star Wars: The Phantom Menace.

[Diva]

Batman: One man with many suits

Hollowearth: One man with many cameras

Get it?

[hollowearth]

I do occasionally creep about on rooftops at night with my special toys, but Amaurote's right, I do have a lot more in common with R2D2 than Batman.

[Diva]

Well, then Am would be C3P0... And I have dibs on Princess Leia. We know who Chewy is [Aussie]. Hmmmm.... Who's gonna be Han Solo?

[Anton]

I wanna be darth, let me darth pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease.

I'll tell mummy if you don't let me be darth

[hollowearth]

Okay, Anton can be Darth Vader as he understands the true power of the dark side... Woo - Return of the Jedi has just been on tele. :) We might as well change this thread to be which star wars character would you be I guess...

Beep

[Amaurote]

Anton, Diva and Hollow fit their respective characters, but I've always seen myself as more akin to the "Ta-ta-tacka" droid, somehow.

[Diva]

What the heck is a Ta-ta-tacka? Am, I'm disappointed. No picture?

[Amaurote]

Di: I'm not a Star Wars fanatic, so I'm not sure what it's official George Lucas title is - I can't even remember which of the original trilogy it's in, but it was probably one of the Cloud City scenes. Solo et al are walking along a corridor when a tiny box on wheels approaches, perpetually emitting the sound "Ta-ta-tacka" . Chewbacca sees it and roars, and it speeds off in the opposite direction, making an appropriately more urgent "Ta-ta-tacka" noise. I can't find an image, unfortunately.

I'm not sure, but I suspect that Hollowearth will not only know the name of the droid in question and the scene in which it cameos, but also the exact time in nanoseconds of its appearance, the symbolic resonance of its nature and the colour of its underpants.

[hollowearth]

Originally posted by Amaurote
For the most part I regard it as an inferior genre - it shouldn't be, because Alan Moore has demonstrated how effective, profound and original it can be, but it simply doesn't - in the main - compare to a properly worked out, refined novel.From a new Ninth Art article on this topic which tends to agree with Amaurote : "It's been said that comics are a bastard medium, born of a marriage between prose fiction and visual narrative; words and pictures. If this is the case, why is the storytelling in the average comic so free of the innovative storytelling characteristics of its parents?"

http://www.ninthart.com/display.php?article=181

[Scranton]

I'm almost tempted! but I'll leave it in case I return.