Could You Do It?

[Diva]

Could you pull the trigger?

First scenerio: You have an intruder in your home. He pulls out a gun and fires. It misses and you both fall to the floor. You gain control of his gun. He reaches to his ankle, where you see a second gun. Could you shoot him?

Second scenerio: You are on a plane when two men stand up with guns and say they are going to kill everyone onboard plus people on the outside. One terrorist trips and shoots himself. He falls beside you with the gun by your foot. The first terrorist grabs a female passenger and goes towards the pilots cabin. You do not have a clean shot. He is at the door. You will have to shoot through her. Could you?

[The_Roach]

In both instances, no.

There was a time when I would probably have, point blank, responded in the affirmative. I'm not sure that there was any life changing event that changed this within me, but it's different now. I still have the same amount of disdain for humanity as a whole, but I'm not sure that I want to seem them all dead anymore. I've become quite the little pacifist in my old age.

I'm a lover, not a fighter.

[Amaurote]

I stand in complete contradistinction to that: I have absolutely no inclination towards misanthropy, but I would have no hesitation whatsoever in pulling the trigger in both instances. I love life too much, and I would feel entirely constrained by the immediacy of the events.

Case (1) reminds me of that old story about the burglar who breaks into a Quaker's house and is confronted by the owner, who points a shotgun at him and observes:

"Brother, I have no wish to harm thee, but you are standing exactly where I am about to shoot"...

Your life is in danger from a homicidal maniac; you are constrained to defend yourself, mediately and immediately. Why torture yourself about it?

Case (2) shouldn't really be a dilemma in the context of 911: if I'm going to die I want to confront the person who is murdering me; and not acting with ruthless urgency and insouciance is a de facto betrayal of the lives of every other person on board the plane, including the female hostage. Those doors are reinforced post-911: the hypothesis suggests that the first thing the terrorist will do is close the reinforced doors against you, point the plane earthwards and accelerate.

I have a great deal of admiration for the passengers on board the 911 Philadelphia Flight. They acted and fought back; they may not have survived, but they forestalled another al-Qeda propaganda coup.

I suspect that the vast majority of people would feel astounding, introspective grief in the aftermath, and I'm no exception; but I love my petty existence too much to surrender it to the first homicidal lunatic I meet in the street.

Call me Iblis.

[Redallnite]

Oh my, someone comes into my home to hurt me or mine. If I had that weapon in my hand his face would be gone.

[usantic]

Case 1: Bang!
Case 2: Hopefully a disabling shot to the hostage would cause enought distraction to the gunman to open the possibility of a clear shot. If not, I am afraid the next shot would have to take out the hostage.

[aussie]

Originally posted by TheRoach
In both instances, no.

There was a time when I would probably have, point blank, responded in the affirmative. I'm not sure that there was any life changing event that changed this within me, but it's different now. I still have the same amount of disdain for humanity as a whole, but I'm not sure that I want to seem them all dead anymore. I've become quite the little pacifist in my old age.

I'm a lover, not a fighter.

Fight or flight?
Flight is always a good thing but when all avenues of escape are sealed instinct will make you fight. Once you get a big shot of adrenalin there is no fear any more just excitement. You will instinctivly do what ever you have to just to stay alive and that includes killing who ever you have to.

[Jennafer]

I've had nightmares about the first one alot. And in my dreams I always kick their ass. I either take their gun, and kill them or something like that and I always end up fighting them and winning. I thought it was a good sign that if it really happened, I'd take a chance and defend myself, but ya don't know until it's actually happened.

The second one? Well, I doubt I'll ever get on a plane again. I was afraid before Sept. And now...it's never going to be possible. But, I guess if I was up there. I'd just have to do what ever I could I guess. Hopefully I'd be drinking because I can scare the fuck out of some people when I'm pissed off and drunk. And I get this xtreme amount of suicidal braveness...

[usantic]

Originally posted by aussie


Fight or flight?
Flight is always a good thing but when all avenues of escape are sealed instinct will make you fight. Once you get a big shot of adrenalin there is no fear any more just excitement. You will instinctivly do what ever you have to just to stay alive and that includes killing who ever you have to.

This brings to mind your piggin' post Aus. I've been to a hunt club here in Ga. where they've had fellas hunt in just such a manner.
I'd fly on a plane with you anyday. *shakes his head and chuckles.* Thats got to be a rush,but I wouldn't do it lest I had to.

[The_Roach]

Originally posted by aussie


Fight or flight?
Flight is always a good thing but when all avenues of escape are sealed instinct will make you fight. Once you get a big shot of adrenalin there is no fear any more just excitement. You will instinctivly do what ever you have to just to stay alive and that includes killing who ever you have to.

My reasoning for this has nothing to do with fear. My overwhelming pacifism would prevent me from killing any of these people. I would rather recieve a bullet than personally give one.

[Villager]

Originally posted by Diva

First scenerio: You have an intruder in your home. He pulls out a gun and fires. It misses and you both fall to the floor. You gain control of his gun. He reaches to his ankle, where you see a second gun. Could you shoot him?


Yes. With no hesitation. I feel strongly about this, if another person is not only willing to break into my home, but attempt to kill me should I pose resistance, I would have zero qualms about ending the lowlife's existence. I'd shoot him in the arm first, then somewhere around the midriff, and finally the head/chest if he was still alive. He'd deserve to suffer; to know what he was seconds from imposing onto me.



Originally posted by Diva

Second scenerio: You are on a plane when two men stand up with guns and say they are going to kill everyone onboard plus people on the outside. One terrorist trips and shoots himself. He falls beside you with the gun by your foot. The first terrorist grabs a female passenger and goes towards the pilots cabin. You do not have a clean shot. He is at the door. You will have to shoot through her. Could you?

Yeah. Simple math, really. I'd go for somewhere that's unlikely to leave her dead, and yet immobilised, such as the upper thigh. She wouldn't thank me for it, granted, but hey.

Clear cut for both, really, even if I had to kill the woman.

[aussie]

Originally posted by TheRoach


My reasoning for this has nothing to do with fear. My overwhelming pacifism would prevent me from killing any of these people. I would rather recieve a bullet than personally give one.

I still believe once adrenalin takes over and it becomes a fight or flight situation self preservation will dictate your actions. I had two shots fired in my general direction one night and the last thing on my mind was thoughts of anything but but self preservation

[Amaurote]

Originally posted by TheRoach


My reasoning for this has nothing to do with fear. My overwhelming pacifism would prevent me from killing any of these people. I would rather recieve a bullet than personally give one.

What about your support for capital punishment, Roach? Granted, there's no logical contradiction between simultaneously espousing liquidation for convicted criminals and refusing on principle to harm another innocent human being, but isn't there an affectual/emotional inconsistency here?

I'm not being captious, here; just curious.

Addendum:

If anyone wants to explore the principles behind conflict resolution, I strongly recommend the roleplaying exercizes on
ZAP (http://www.zap.ca), a Canadian animation company. I've been playing them for a while now, and "Suspicious Cop" in particular is wonderful preparation for a possible real-life scenario.

[The_Roach]

Originally posted by Amaurote


What about your support for capital punishment, Roach? Granted, there's no logical contradiction between simultaneously espousing liquidation for convicted criminals and refusing on principle to harm another innocent human being, but isn't there an affectual/emotional inconsistency here?

If I were in touch with my emotions, as opposed to the cold repression of them that plagues my interpersonal relationships, I would agree with you.

Another reason for not engaging in killing has a little something to do with my view on capital punishment. I am not an appropriate judge in determining who should live and who should die. This isn't a religious conviction, either. I think that you really do need a group of nine people (and possibly a couple more groups of nine) to make that distinction. I am not educated enough to do such a thing.

yes for both.

the first one is a no brainer, kill or be killed.

the second, whew. i'd try not to hit her, but if i had to i'd try to hit no vital organs. either way though, i'm takin' the shot with no regrets.

[Amaurote]

Originally posted by TheRoach


If I were in touch with my emotions, as opposed to the cold repression of them that plagues my interpersonal relationships, I would agree with you.

Another reason for not engaging in killing has a little something to do with my view on capital punishment. I am not an appropriate judge in determining who should live and who should die.

It's a very logical position, Roach, and entirely defensible.

My view is that you aren't been asked to indulge an urge to kill, you're been asked a binary question: Do you want to live or die?

Moreover, in Scenario 2 you're been asked: Do you want to save the lives of hundreds of people? No-one is asking you to become Lord of Life and Death: you're merely being asked to choose between good and evil. This is clearly the case in the second instance; in the first you're being asked to choose between a homicidal maniac and someone you know to be capable of virtue and creative growth, i.e. you. Your decision is enforced; you aren't expected to be infallible.

That's why I'd pull the trigger.

[Banger]

Even though the scenario's are a little hard to swallow, I thought the subject matter was interesting...and seeing as we have a bunch of new members, I thought it would be interesting to see their point of view...as well as mine.

[JakeD]

Scenario 1) Of course. Self-preservation.
Scenario 2) Of course. Self-preservation, as well as preserving the lives of others. I'd do as Villager said and shoot her somewhere where she wouldn't die, but be immobilized.

[SysLord]

First case: yes, but only to disable

Second case: a definate no

Killing one to save 50 doesn't (always) hold up. Let me rephrase the second case for all who votes 'yes'. Suppose the hijacker was holding your girlfriend/boyfriend/wife/husband? Would you then still shoot?

[JakeD]

Specifics aren't implied in this situation. What if the hijacker grabbed Joan Rivers and headed for the cockpit? It's just generally a random female passenger. If she isn't killed (which Vill and I both explained), she will be better off than the alternative, which is having her life spared and watching a plane chock-full of innocent people with families, lives, or lovers go plummeting to their doom because one person who had the chance wasn't willing to make a stand and go through with a tough decision.

[SysLord]

Why not answer a simple question with a simple 'yes' or 'no' Jake. It's because this question doesn't fall into the black and white category? My point is that it may not so easy to say 'you would shoot to kill' in different circumstances.

[JakeD]

Originally posted by JakeD

Scenario 2) Of course. Self-preservation, as well as preserving the lives of others. I'd do as Villager said and shoot her somewhere where she wouldn't die, but be immobilized.
I said I'd shoot her, either way. I'd just try not to kill her.

[kittyroze]

I'd shoot both. No one messes with me or people around me in that manner. It's not allowed. However, I do agree that I would simply just try to immobilize them as oppose to kill.

[Blue]

Of course, I would shoot. Do you guys expect anything else from me? I am a pretty good shot. I think I could hit the hijacker without hurting the lady. I am not perfect, but I feel confident with my skills.

If I am not able to shoot, then I need to find something else to do for a career.

[SysLord]

Blue, from you I would expect the answer and would actually agree with it. The others, mmm, I quite shocked to be honest. Maybe I am too much of a softie :rolleyes: However, I don't agree with Amaurote's arguement saying that this is a binary question: life or die. It's not because you would *not* shoot the hijacker that all people would die.

[Jake]

Yes and yes.

1. In a situation where it is me or the intruder, the intruder will lose.

2. Not only to try and save the passengers onboard, but after 9-11 we learned that there are many people who's lives could be in danger outside the aircraft too.

[Moon-Light]

Originally posted by kittyroze
I'd shoot both. No one messes with me or people around me in that manner. It's not allowed. However, I do agree that I would simply just try to immobilize them as oppose to kill.

woo hoo! a female James Bond, I'll stick close to you kittyrose :) atleast I will feel safe.

[love_tattoos]

I have no doubt that I could shoot in both instances. If it means my life or their's then it's their life that is going to be taken.

[Moon-Light]

Originally posted by love_tattoos
I have no doubt that I could shoot in both instances. If it means my life or their's then it's their life that is going to be taken.

Another one ? what are they putting in the water over there ;) hehe.

[Redallnite]

In a heart beat....