Britain against bin Laden death penalty, says Hoon

[Diva]

"Geoff Hoon has indicated that Britain would only hand over Osama bin Laden to the US if he did not face the death penalty."

The Northern Alliance is flattening mountains in hopes of getting where Bin Laden is hiding. But if he somehow crawls out of the rubble and UK troups find him, the forces switch to protect him? Over 6,000 people who murdered or maimed in just one terrorist attack. This isn't even counting the countless other terrorist acts that he is directly involved in throughout the years.

I understand that Britain does not believe in the death penalty. But this monster terrorized the world! And Britain is willing to prevent this fiend from standing trial? Protect him? Are they going to keep him. G-d help the UK if they do. I know that they have dealt with terrorism before. Prepare for a whole new wave of kidnappings, demands and murder. It will not end until his breath does. And then the terror will change again...

[Amaurote]

It's an intriguing point, Di, but I suspect that Geoff Hoon is merely placating the Left of the Labour Party, who are currently decrying the control freakery of the Chief Whip's office. Hoon is a Fabian, and a likely leadership contender when Blair steps down in 4-5 years time. Moreover, he's known as a pragmatist, and he certainly isn't anti-American: his stance is based on the fact that the UK is a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights.

For the record, this is all pretty academic: if Bin Laden is discovered by a member of the SAS, as opposed to US Special Forces, he'll almost certainly perish on the spot.

I'll support this claim with a little bit of evidence: about 13 years ago three IRA terrorists were traced to Gibraltar, and confronted by disguised SAS operatives. They were torn to shreds by bullets in the ensuing chase; it was ater discovered that they were unarmed, and the SAS had to - yet again - assure everyone that there was no secret "Shoot to Kill" edict. Private Eye ran a cover of three balaclava-masked SAS men, with speech bubbles that ran thus:

1st SAS Operative: Why did you shoot him 16 times?

2nd SAS Operative: I ran out of bullets.

--------------------------------------------------------

In this context, I'd argue that whatever Geoff Hoon says - or does - is largely irrelevant. Bin Laden will be either free, dead, or on trial in a US court. He doesn't have a fourth option.

[aussie]

well since the US is the only country in the civilised western world to retain the death penalty I find it hard to believe the rest of the civilised world could be considered out of step. A fine example of the death penalty gone wrong would be Albert DeSalvo who was killed in jail for the boston strangler murders. DNA evidence now says that he was innocent of at least one of the murders. Since he`s dead now I guess its a bit late to say sorry wrong man. If they can kill Bin Laden in war then thats fair enough but state sponsored murder is another thing altogether. That is a revenge murder not justice

[Redallnite]

SO, what are you saying aussie? We (or at least me) not CIVILIZED? Just because I want to see him swing????

[The_Roach]

The death penalty is one of the greatest things about our legal system in the states. Why should my valuable tax dollars go to rehabilitating (read: putting them in a cell, providing them meals and cable television) hard core, career criminals?

I think we need to step up the death penalty in this country. It helps to curb overpopulation, provides additional funds for education and prevention, and provides firmer negative reinforcement against commiting crimes. Plus, the government could make a mint televising it and doing a pay-per-view special.

[aussie]

*respect for roach flies out the window*

[usantic]

Amaurote, I disagree with Bin Laden not having a 4th option.
The Afghan's should have a beef with him also. Look at the damage that Bin Laden brought to that country by not stepping up and saying "I did it, prove it!" I'd be much more open to the Afghans trying him first. Most of the evidence that has been made public is largely circumstantial. I'd be afraid he'd walk if tried here.
Got your Koran handy? What muslim punishment would Bin Laden get for his actions there?

[Diva]

Here's the quotes in todays' CNN Report:

Officials at Tony Blair's Downing Street office said on Monday that if bin Laden, who is suspected of having carried out the September 11 attacks on the U.S., is captured by Brittish forces in Afghanistan, he would immediately be handed over to U.S. officials.

The handing over of bin Laden in Afghanistan to U.S. forces would make irrelevant any questions about extradition and the possible death penalty in the U.S. That is because bin Laden would not be on British soil and would not be subject to British law. British officials do not expect bin Laden to make it to British soil."

And there ya go! That, my dear friends, is a classic case of spin control.

[Amaurote]

Exactly, Diva:

Geoff Hoon nominally affirms the idealism of the European Convention; on the ground we see realpolitik in action.

There's nothing particularly novel about this: as I remember, after WWII the British - and the Americans, too - "repatriated" former White generals (and Nazi collaborators) to certain death in Stalinist Russia, despite the fact that the generals in question had Albanian passports. Nuremburg was justice in the sense that a nest of loathsome, genocidal killers was justly extirpated; but it was also Victor's Justice, and it's best to admit that if we're to learn anything from history.

I'm completely opposed to the death penalty, except in times of Total War when the discipline of the army depends upon it; it would be inconsistent of me to support it, because I fundamentally believe in the efficacy of rehabilitation and personal redemption.

Usantic: You make an excellent point. The Qu'ran isn't the sharia, so the laws it incorporates are few and far between. However, here's a pertinent injunction from Surah II, The Cow:

"Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors."

911 was pure aggression - from this you can deduce the much-trumpeted theological "orthodoxy" of bin Laden's Wahhabism for yourselves. So much for the only attack-minded jihad in history.

[Jake]

Originally posted by Amaurote
I'm completely opposed to the death penalty, except in times of Total War when the discipline of the army depends upon it; it would be inconsistent of me to support it, because I fundamentally believe in the efficacy of rehabilitation and personal redemption. Hey everybody. I seem to have come back to a full house! Amaurote, do you believe that Bin Laden can be rehabilitated? His life is terrorism. He was "amused" by the fact that several of his terrorist thugs did not know that it was to be a suicide mission on september 11th. Would you rather he be brought to justice in England? No offense, my friend. But your system is as lax as ours can be brutal.

[Amaurote]

Originally posted by Jake
Hey everybody. I seem to have come back to a full house! Amaurote, do you believe that Bin Laden can be rehabilitated? His life is terrorism. He was "amused" by the fact that several of his terrorist thugs did not know that it was to be a suicide mission on september 11th. Would you rather he be brought to justice in England? No offense, my friend. But your system is as lax as ours can be brutal.

Several excellent points there, Jake.

(1) I believe in rehabilitation as a principle for the Prison Service; but rehabilitation doesn't presuppose release. In any case, Osama bin Laden is a sui generis case - we're effectively in a state of war with his organization. There is very little likelihood of bringing him in alive. Would I prefer it? Yes, I would. Why? I'd like to see him stand trial in The Hague, like Slobodan Milosevic, and, like Slobodan Milosevic, be diminished and exposed by Western justice. I want to see his cynicism, genocidal decisions and faulty logical processes delineated in a Court of Law, without the grandeur of martyrdom. I don't want him executed; I want him ruined, morally, politically and spiritually. I want no trace of martyrdom or grandeur to linger around his name or portrait. Executing him won't help; shooting him summarily in a raid is a decent substitute, and by far the most probable outcome - but it still grants him the lineaments of martyrdom.

(2) The UK system isn't lax in comparison with other European countries, although you're of course quite right to point out its leniency compared with the USA; on the other hand, I'd point out that the USA is a gigantic and highly diverse nation comprised of individual states, some more lenient, some less. To place it in perspective, we currently have more inmates per head of population than anywhere else in the Western world - bar the USA. More prisons are built every year, more custodial sentences are doled out, and we now have a veritable society of captives. We're locking up more women than ever before, and the prison-building programme never ends. If lacking capital punishment makes a nation lax, the UK is certainly lax; but there are far more effective ways of punishing criminals than merely terminating their lives.

I'll say it again: I don't see Osama bin Laden rotting in a prison for the rest of his miserable life,a ruined, fallen, semi-comical idol of the Islamofascist East. But he should.