Terrorist Training School (do we bomb it)

[aussie]

In those immortal words of george dubya bush "If any government sponsors the outlaws and killers of innocents they have become outlaws and murderers them selves and will take that lonely path at their own peril"
And thus began the attack on Afganistan The bombing of roads, Bridges, Military instalations, Cities, and airports in the hope of over throwing the government and replacing it with a new administration overseen by the UN. All of the above I aplaud.
I am however glad he said . "any government" for there is one which although has yet to be identified as a sponsor of terrorism does require looking into. For the past 55yrs it has been running a terrorist training camp who`s victims greatly out weigh the sum of all atrocities laid at the feet of ousama bin laden. This camp is called the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Co- Operation or Whisc. Untill January this year Whisc was called The school of the Americas, or SOA. It is based in Fort Benning Georgia. Its graduates list reads like a who`s who of mass murder and torture, To name but a few of the most prominent let me begin with :-

Augusto Pinochet
Graduates of the SOA School ran his three largest concentration camps
Argentina
Roberto Viola, Leopold Galtieri (graduated)
Panama
Manuel Noriega and Omar Torrijos (graduated)
Peru
Juan Velasco Alvarado (graduated)
Ecuador
Guillermo Rodrigues (graduated)
Guatemala
Now heres a personal favourite of mine Colonel Byron Lima Estrada also a graduate of SOA ran the D-2 military intelligence agency. D-2 is accredited with wiping out 448 Mayan Indian villages and murdering tens of thousands of their people.
Forty percent of the cabinet ministers who served the genocidal regimes of Lucas Garcia, Rios Montt and Mejia Vitores all studied at the SOA.

Whilst I could go on here for pages I’m sure by now you all get my drift. For those who don’t have a quick look around the web your selves there’s plenty out there.


So red you still may have time to move before the bombing starts

http://www.labournet.net/mumia/0103/soa1.html http://www.house.gov/farr/soa.htm

[Redallnite]

Aussie - I was 100% wrong!!! :o

[Amaurote]

Good point, Aussie: Pinochet was around for a good two decades, too, in a country which had virtually no history of right-wing military dictatorship. He must have been top of the class. Every nation in the world has employed Terror at some point; in fact, you could look back as far as the French Revolution for an example of individual factions fighting over and attempting to monopolize Terror.

On the other hand, the US and the Western World as a whole has come a long way from the Cold War days. We no longer routinely subvert developing nations, or rig geopolitical crises, like Cyprus. The Nixon-Kissinger days are long gone; I can't imagine the CIA returning to a policy of assassination for very long, particularly given its failure in the past. In fact, the USA has had a positive impact on the world community for the best part of 20 years.

I'm not especially hung up on the idea of negotiating with terrorists if their cause is just: the IRA are a classic example. We gave them devolved power and removed troops; they decommissioned weapons. Al-Queda isn't just, and can't be negotiated with. End of story.

[LucifersChild]

i believe if terrorism is found in our own country, as said terrorism camp. demolish the bastard. any and all terrorist camps, KABOOM for lack of better words. america should be no exeption to the rule

[Diva]

Hmmmm... I seem to be a bit lost here. Wasn't Aussie the one who originally started this thread? *rubs eyes*

Why don't we stick to the facts. What may 'potentionally' happen and what 'did' happen. I've been taught how to shoot to kill. I spent many hours on a firing range and in canyons to become comfortable with a gun. Why? Self defense. Speaking of which, I've taken a few self defense classes, also. I have never shot another human being, nor do I own a gun at this time. I have had to defend myself against an attacker.

Bin Ladin is guilty of crimes against humanity that spans years. As is his minions.You want to name names and demand the particular guilty parties directly involved in their tutering be brought to trial? I believe the American public would rise to the occasion. Meanwhile, Ladin is surrounded by human shields. The point I am trying to make is that there is NO simularity between the two countries, and no one is bombing Georgia.

[LucifersChild]

diva.. let me make sure im understanding ya.. if there are terrorism camps in our own country, we shouldnt do anything? yes bombing georgia is a litle on the extreme side, but still, it should be put to an end

[Redallnite]

Alright - true, things such as the S.O.A. should come to an end. But KABOOM be for real lucy..... Now you know the terrorists does not have the pin-point accuracy that the US has so they could miss and KABOOM Alabama. :rolleyes:

[Jennafer]

Oh, we're all going to die eventually anyway...It's just a matter of time. I don't mean-the End-shit, I just mean, death is a part of life. Killiing isn't right, but animals kill each other to survive. Do we punish them? It's all fucking crazy to me...I'd rather just enjoy the simple things I have, and enjoy every minute, one at a time. Let the hotshots do the politics. (I'm very tired and moody...)

My boobs don't have any nipples.:confused:

[Diva]

You want to name names and demand the particular guilty parties directly involved in their tutering be brought to trial? I believe the American public would rise to the occasion. Meanwhile, Ladin is surrounded by human shields.

Read this again, Luc... Do you think that we would block due process of individuals who's main goal was to train terrorism and then release it on innocent people? The people of the United States, not politicians, would react. I truly believe that those guilty would be handed over for due process before the bullet entered the chamber. Red lives there and did not know of its existence, nor did I.

Meanwhile, Bin Ladin is being heralded as a hero for the massive crimes against humanity. They would rather destroy their own country and allow innocent people to die than hand over a mass murderer. That is why I said it would not be bombed. It wouldnt get to that point. But I strongly believe that ANY person training someone to torchure, oppress, murder, maim and rule should be held count for count as the 'leader' who acted on their new-found knowledge.

[aussie]

Well I guess we all have our own beliefs in the infallability of our own people and the justice system that goes along with it.

"Do you think that we would block due process of individuals who's main goal was to train terrorism and then release it on innocent people? The people of the United States, not politicians, would react. I truly believe that those guilty would be handed over for due process before the bullet entered the chamber"
whilst I am in no way attempting to villify the american people here. I would point to the links I posted originally one of which was from the congess of the united states of america. Due process was and still is being impeded I will also add another link at this time from an amnesty international page you will need real player to listen to it but I feel its well worth the effort

http://www.patweb.com/soaslide/soa.ram

Amnesty international have for some time been running a public awareness program with in the united states. But with out massive advertising budgets raising public awareness is a slow process. Apathy and indifference are by no means purely an american trait though they run rife through out my own country.

For those of you who wonder at my interest in all this her name is Murielia Abigail Sinay Gomez and she is a world vision child in Guatemala I support. :)

[LucifersChild]

ok.... im sorry for my reaction. i didnt literally mean i wanted to bomb georgia.. whew

[LucifersChild]

ok you guys.. im sorry let me try to explain. i have ocd. and if i do not make light of the things that worry me, then i literally worry myself into a panic attack. so i feel the deep need to apologize to red, diva, and the rest.. im sorry

[Jennafer]

I don't have ocd. But, I know about the nightmare panic attacks. I worry myself into them once in a while. Not too bad lately. But, there's no need to apologize. I'm in La La land half the time anyway, so it doesn't get me upset. LOL. I'm kidding. But, I do understand about mental disturbances. They suck.

[Diva]

Hey Luci, no need to reply. Part of being in a forum is having different opinions and stating them. We're all worried.... Together. :(

That's right, Jenn Jenn. No worries. We're here to let it out with eachother. Both good and bad.

[Redallnite]

Ditto what the Diva said, but i'm gonna ask a "dumb" question. What is OCD? :confused:

[LucifersChild]

ocd is Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.... ive had it for a while now.. and yepp jenn, mental disturbances extremely suck ass when you cant afford a psychiatrist.. *sigh* but oh well, i keep things pretty much in check most of the time

[Jake]

Luci, send me a paying and have a seat. I think this is more 'therapitic' than some quack asking you about your childhood

[LucifersChild]

sure thing jake, wish that was possible. most people dont have the time to talk to me about my probs. most act as if theyre listening, but theyd much rather you shut up so that they can tell their stories. sometimes people just need to get their shit out. even me :D

[Jake]

What? So, anyway, back to my ingrown toe nail drama....:D

[usantic]

Wow! Pretty stark truths about what goes on in your own backyard! These murderers were trained by the U.S. military, but
does that make every teacher accountable? What these despots
did with their training was irrefutably WRONG. I can't bring myself to believe that our govenrment would knowingly teach these guys these murderous traits. Those ideas are buried in the psyche
of these people. Granted, a total revamp of our training system should be incurred. Perhaps a deeper psychological profile? At more cost to our bottom line? Don't try and assist them at all?
Whew! You folks swim in some deep waters! *slips into tha pool*
I like it. I like it. *grins and then frowns trying to calculate the different blast radii of U.S. arsenals* Egads! Atlanta may be too close!

[aussie]

Hey Im glad you took the time to read it mate. I believe in this case the teacher is responsible Im not sure if you clicked on the links I posted or not but the training manuals that were released showed that they were being taught things like kidnap, torture,and all the other things your local street corner despot needs to know in order to seize power and hold it.
Another one shows that when it was bought to the notice of the government they just changed the name and carried on regardless. But hey isnt that just like governments to do whats best for us wether we like it or not.
As for swimming in deep water I feel if a forum such as this can make even one person more aware then all divas time and effort havnt been invain. Its always a good thing to have a positive now and then :)

[GLADIATOR]

OK, I now took time to read it. The second link to me seems official enough, but the first one, is exactly what? I am not sure if this is just additional 'guesswork' or indeed an official document. I would be grateful to your comment on that.

If it is true, and I could not condone it. However I very much support Amaurotes post, which I notice no one responded too.

I am absolutely sure that American governments have sponsored the training of 'friendly' governments, which later they/we fall out with. But the names you list, what 100% proof all those persons went through this SOA training camp.

It is known that the Kennedy government (I think Kennedy) passed laws stopping the CIA from assissinating heads of states/leaders, or indeed taking the law into their own hands.

I await your comment on link 1 before going much further, but I am not willing to compare USA Government/Bush to Arafat/Bin Laden or other terrorist regimes.

Thanks

[aussie]

I await your comment on link 1 before going much further, but I am not willing to compare USA Government/Bush to Arafat/Bin Laden or other terrorist regimes.

Your refusal to aknowledge Bush or the american Government as terrorists comes as no surprise to me at all. After all agents of the American government have killed and tortured far more human beings than Arafat/ Bin Laden ever have by far, so why sould America not be in a class of its own.
The first link I also have no doubt you will deem as unreliable as well but for the sake of the exercise I can tell you I found it on an Amnesty international site. If you want copies of the graduation certificates Im sure they are out there its just a matter of looking the fact that these guys graduated is no secret the school is in fact quite proud of its graduates.
As for the training of friendly governments NOT ONE of those mentioned in my first post was in government at the time of their training. You may also add to that that not one was ever elected All took control with armed force and all took control from democraticly elected governments. It was M16`s not AK47`s that destroyed democracy in those countries and if you chose to believe it or not it dosnt matter but the facts are that all of those populations were controled by terror. Terror that had its roots buried deep in the United states government
http://www.bluemeany.com/gif/angry/ang018.gif

[GLADIATOR]

Well Aussie I am meeting Oliver North in about 2 weeks time, I intend to ask him, about these allegations. I believe him to be a fair guy, and no reason to defend or hide it, if I ask. I will post back then.

In the meantime, I will continue to pray for the health of the USa, as without them, the rest of the world would be under Facist rule, I would be dead, and SysLord would be making chocolates as a slave labourer.

[aussie]

Yes Im sure Oliver North will tell you the real truth as the congress and amnesty international never could. Did you like how the shifty bastards changed the name of the place and then it was business as usual?
Im sure it was only america who won the second world war for you I guess anything that says anyother country was involved is only propaganda
http://www.bluemeany.com/gif/death/ded011.gif

[SysLord]

Glad, I am very grateful for all the actions that the allied (not only US) nations did in WWII. But it wasn't exactly an altruistic deed as well, was it? What choice did the then free nations have but to get involved when half of Europe was a Nazi powerhouse? And it certainly doesn't give future generations the right to misuse in the name of the past.

[GLADIATOR]

Not at all I strongly praise Australians, Canadians, Indians ect.

I never realized you hated them as well, so I did't bother defending them.

Actually I like everyone except the ones I don't like.;)

[aussie]

Ok now your talking in circles. You must forgive a poor colonial but I have no fucking Idea what your talking about who do I hate?

[GLADIATOR]

Originally posted by aussie


Ok now your talking in circles. You must forgive a poor colonial but I have no fucking Idea what your talking about who do I hate?

You quoted
Im sure it was only america who won the second world war for you I guess anything that says anyother country was involved is only propaganda

Implying I never respected that other countries took part. I was responding that I did respect the help of the other countries but had not mentioned them, as I thought you were only bashing USA.

Therefore I do not consider propoganda that many other nations soldiers died in the name of freedom.

Hope thats clear enough for you.:D

[aussie]

Sorry I never realised what I was doing was bashing the USA. I prefer to think that I was merely pointing out a few unpleasant facts about the place and its government. I was in no way attempting to bash anyone I am to close to people like jennifer, Diva, Redallnite etc to begin hating or bashing them now. The word propaganda was in reference to your own dismissal of facts you prefered not to face as propaganda earlier in the thread.http://www.bluemeany.com/gif/death/ded016.gif

[GLADIATOR]

Aussie quoted.
Your refusal to aknowledge Bush or the american Government as terrorists comes as no surprise to me at all.

Well if that's not bashing America what is?

[SysLord]

I think what aussie meant that he is not bashing Americans as individuals.

[aussie]

Originally posted by GLADIATOR


Well if that's not bashing America what is?

well if they are training terrorists just as Ousama Bin Laden did and if that training is well documented and admitted by their government. If the results of that training are out there for the whole world to see. How do you view my commenting on it as bashing ? Is terrorism called by another name when its the united states thats involved? Or would you prefer we all just pretend it dosnt exist and just walk around with our collective heads up our collective arses? Perhaps we could all just dismiss the whole thing as propaganda and pretend that none of these guys ever existed or that the torture methods taught at the school of the americas was only ever just hypothetical. Would that make it less like bashing to you?
Would it make thousands of people in central and south America live again? Do you think all those people should have died and been tortured in vain? Do you really believe no one should ever speak of for the sake of not upseting the US government. People died over there they died horrible painfull deaths just as those in the holocaust did surely as a decent human being you cant sugest we just sweep all that under the carpet. This is no joke mate or just another side in a debate these are people who lost every thing they had. They are just as dead as the five thousand souls who lost their lives in the word trade centre. Dont discount their deaths in here like this and dont cheapen their memories either. ITS JUST NOT RIGHT
http://www.bluemeany.com/gif/flower/fwr005.jpg

[GLADIATOR]

Jesus , Aussie, I don't need a speech. I read all that in your original thread. The question is

1) Are you bashing USA as a country?
2) Are you calling USA a terrorist nation?
3) Are you bashing Americans?
4) Who the fuck do you like?
All I want is yes or no

[aussie]

1) Are you bashing USA as a country? .................NO
2) Are you calling USA a terrorist nation? .............YES
3) Are you bashing Americans? .............................NO
4) Who the fuck do you like? .................................NO ONE
All I want is yes or no

[GLADIATOR]

Originally posted by aussie
see above

So you are saying you do not like me, after I spent all these hours explaining to you that USA were a bunch of terrorists. Where is your gratitude , aussie.

[SysLord]

I reckon you two guys should form the next Monty Phyton LOL

[aussie]

Originally posted by GLADIATOR

So you are saying you do not like me, after I spent all these hours explaining to you that USA were a bunch of terrorists. Where is your gratitude , aussie.

What the fuck are you smoking over there mate?

Second Question. Where can I buy some?

Who was explaining what to whom?

Originally posted by SysLord
I reckon you two guys should form the next Monty Phyton LOL

I doubt it mate how could I contemplate going into anything with a man who is obviously on drugs and probably bloody english as well. I hate the bloody english
http://www.bluemeany.com/gif/misc/mis068.gif

[GLADIATOR]

Listen aussie if you cannot accept defeat in honour, then I cannot respect you like I respect Bush and the American Government.

Seriously, I accept your arguments that any government that supports terrorism for any reason is wrong.

I do not admit to all the accusations raised in Link 1. But I suspect they are correct.

I hate the English, I am Scottish mate. Hold on I hate them as well. OK I will be English.

[aussie]

Well you just have to be careful that there are no scots at the school of the americas. If thats the case then fifteen hundred quid a week might not be all you lose. Im only half joking about that as well

[GLADIATOR]

Aussie, I am a born surviver. I did cal olivier North a few hgours ago, and he did confirm basically what you implied/posted, I will get more details in two weeks when I meet him face to face.

He also mentioned that the Government of USA was warned some 10 yrs prior to Bin Ladens attitudes and evilness.

He also mentioned that few governments are angel white. So I am surely going to dig on Australia.
Watch this post.

[aussie]

hey dig away.
A few good starting points might be

Pine gap ( a once secret American base in the centre of the continent) one our government never told us about.

The nuclear arms we dont have in this country ( thats a good one as well)

The croat training base that was found in Belangry state forest a few years ago (also a good place to start)

Then our military were kicked out of singapore (they got caught spying

that old bean is only scratching the surface Im sure no doubt we were training East Timorese to fight the indonesians during the occupation as well. I have no doubt there is plenty more out there to be dug up. I look forward to reading your posts
Who knows perhaps we were taking sides with the south in the american War of Northern agression
http://www.bluemeany.com/gif/tongue/tng009.gif

[GLADIATOR]

Hey aussie, I decided to go back to the original thread.

The real question is, what should we do. You 'cynically' suggest bombing it (I know you do not mean that) But what do we do to stop these activities in the future. No point in blaming Bush, he did not start it.

How do we defend our country, without disclosing national secrets, yet stopping 'clandestine' operations?

That truly is the question. Should a death law be passed without limitation on any Government figure found breaking an agreed set of conduct??

Also, I want you to realize that much of these claims are true, and much is prpoganda from the other side.

I want to pose the question (or start a Thread) on the Jenin masacre. Did IDF force really carry out a masacre and war crime, or was it defence against the Palestinian fighters defending them selves.
Propoganda or Truth?

[aussie]

The real question is, what should we do. You 'cynically' suggest bombing it (I know you do not mean that) But what do we do to stop these activities in the future. No point in blaming Bush, he did not start it.

Im not sure how we can stop this kind of thing in the future, but for the present Id like to see WHISC closed this very minute and razed to the ground. Whilst I cant blame bush for starting it he is allowing them to carry on business as usual as in my view is implicated bu virtue of that fact alone.

How do we defend our country, without disclosing national secrets, yet stopping 'clandestine' operations?

Indeed clandestine operations are to a degree nessesary but the SOA was never involved in the defence of the nation to my knowledge perhaps you can add something here? As far as I can see it was just a plain old case of ABC (any thing but communism)

That truly is the question. Should a death law be passed without limitation on any Government figure found breaking an agreed set of conduct??


In this country there is no statute of limitations on murder. nor should there be. I view all of those knowingly involved as accesories to murder. So yes bring them to trial. People died horrendous deaths punish ALL the guilty

Also, I want you to realize that much of these claims are true, and much is prpoganda from the other side.

I want you to realise that I cant tell the fact from the bullshit. I speak to people from various parts of south America on the web from time to time and they all tell similar stories. I tried to draw every thing I could from amnesty international and links from their sites. AS far as Im aware I know of no reason to disbelieve them.

Your last question I wont answer just yet as I prefer not to post in total ignorance so let me learn a little more first please

[GLADIATOR]

Originally posted by aussie



In this country there is no statute of limitations on murder. nor should there be. I view all of those knowingly involved as accesories to murder. So yes bring them to trial. People died horrendous deaths punish ALL the guilty

Also, I want you to realize that much of these claims are true, and much is prpoganda from the other side.

I want you to realise that I cant tell the fact from the bullshit. I speak to people from various parts of south America on the web from time to time and they all tell similar stories. I tried to draw every thing I could from amnesty international and links from their sites. AS far as Im aware I know of no reason to disbelieve them.

Your last question I wont answer just yet as I prefer not to post in total ignorance so let me learn a little more first please

Fair responses aussie. Let me add as well.
Without sounding patronizing, I think it is nie impossible to seperate the truth from the lies, the propoganda from reality. One of the reasons is that sometimes even propoganda has the element of truth.

Im not sure how we can stop this kind of thing in the future, but for the present Id like to see WHISC closed this very minute and razed to the ground. Whilst I cant blame bush for starting it he is allowing them to carry on business as usual as in my view is implicated bu virtue of that fact alone.

As you admit, how do we stop it in the future. Only the threat of inprisonment.
And of course any current activity closed and all previous operations openly disclosed.

Indeed clandestine operations are to a degree nessesary but the SOA was never involved in the defence of the nation to my knowledge perhaps you can add something here? As far as I can see it was just a plain old case of ABC (any thing but communism)

Well whats the definition of defence. The old adage 'attack' is the best form of defence.
Lets not be so quick to claim clandestine operations. what really is the problem (in my opinion) is that these people go 'beyond' their original remit.
Thats what needs addressed.

Your last question I wont answer just yet as I prefer not to post in total ignorance so let me learn a little more first please

Agreed, I also want more time before standing to the defence of Israel.

[aussie]

Im not sure if imprisonment would ever be a deterent to any government official. It serves as no deterent to a common theif so I doubt educated men of government would ever be afraid. I think the thing to remember here is that very few men ever commit a crime expecting to be caught I think the best we can hope for is a prison sentence purely for the sake of vengence. I think most of what we are discussing here is a result of disclosure many of the documents I read whilst doing my original reserch were government docs made available under freedom of information or what ever the American equivelant is. So I doubt we are ever going to know the real truth for some time yet. Full disclosure may be some time off yet.
I also concur that attack is the best form of defence however I feel there needs to be a threat before any form of defence is warranted. Would you not agree? Every government over thrown by SOA trained persons was a democraticly elected government of the people. Based on that alone would you not agree that democracy was subverted?

http://www.bluemeany.com/gif/text/txt012.gif

[GLADIATOR]

Basically yes. But add some more points.

Prison is not a deterrent to the hardened criminal, basically because they got nothing to look forward to on the outside. However your politician loses a lot, by losing his freedom. His wife and children walk, he is open to civil suits normally bankrupting them. Plus the shame ect.
Please do not kid yourself, prison sentences would work if they ARE imposed.
However too much is pushed under the carpet.

One way to improve the flow of real information would be to reduce the 50Yr law to 20yrs and 20yrs to 10Yrs (I think those are the correct times documents can be restricted by the Government)
That would mean that disclosure would come within the persons life and possible still his career.

It's a difficult subject, but I know that 'honesty is the best policy' and I can never understand why people try to hide their mistakes rather than just admitting up.

Originally posted by Jennafer

My boobs don't have any nipples. :confused:

Hey. I was studying this thread again, and found above quote. I mean, I spend 3 days debating terrorists, when Jennafer is offering important information.

Now Jen (mate) what did this post have to do with the original thread? I am curious.
And more importantly, has your problem improved since you originally advised us of this serious condition?

And even more importantly, whats the possibility of one of those things thar sais " Jannafer has posted this picture below.":rolleyes:

[Jennafer]

Holy Crap! That was so long ago, I can't even remember why I posted that! LOL. It must have been a pic I saw somewhere. Mine are okay though.

[Jennafer]

Just kidding. :kissy: I just try to stay out of all the negative crap in the world and enjoy laughing instead. I watch the news, and FBI files, Investigative reports, American Justice, Dateline, The new detectives, Forensic Scientists, etc... and all the evil in the world just pisses me off, so I just try to keep on smiling and keep my little world (home) safe. ;) And, I can't control governments and politicians and the man upstairs, so screw it! Man -another topic. :rolleyes:

[SysLord]

I'd rather see your nipples Jenn than you the one you posted...

[Jennafer]

LOL. I guess. That nipple's days are over. :eek: