???Faith???

[Assassin13]

I know this has most likely been discussed before but I would like to start the tread again.

I just finished a large, long and complicated debate with one of my good friends because of faith and what I believe.

I guess what I am trying to say is.....

Everyone has different beliefs. But do you feel like you constantly need to question them or are you happy with your lot in life right now? Personally, I do not know what I believe. I am walking on a path to where the is no end and no beginning. I have ideas and generalizations that I tend to follow but that is as far as it goes. Am I alone or are there others who are just as lost as me?

ciao,

[Villager]

Until recently, I was resigned to ignoring faith. I had encountered it before and it made little impression. In the past 5 months I've been slowly moving towards it again and I think I'm probably 6 months off of a conversion.. that time merely remains to decide what, at the moment it seems like Christianity or Islam, they're neck n neck.

I can't go on living my life with so many contradictions, unanswered questions, and ultimately meaninglessness.

[Sterling]

Faith is believing something you know to be false.

[Villager]

Originally posted by Sterling
Faith is believing something you know to be false.

Then I have great faith that you are absolutely right.

[Sterling]

Look, honestly, there is no God. Just get over it.

And even if there were a God, why would we have any reason to believe that such an entity bears any relationship to our human-fabricated religious doctrines?

Face it: religions are just cults that got lucky.

[Villager]

Originally posted by Sterling
Look, honestly, there is no God. Just get over it.

And what brings you to this conclusion, may I ask?

[Assassin13]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion sterling but I tend to disagree with you there. But lets not look at that. People do not believe in something that is false, period. Therefor, Faith is not beleiving in something false. Faith is beleiving in something without proof that is exists or in things that they cannot disagree with. Regardless of what you believe you have some for of faith.

Even if it is atheism then that is your faith. You have faith that god does not exist. But to throw such a bold statement onto someone and tell us that we are wrong can be dangerous. I may be new but, you are what you post and that assumes A LOT!

[Sterling]

Atheism is not a faith. This is common argument made by religious zealots whenever someone wants to challenge them, but it's logically fallacious.

Atheism is simply applying Occam's razor, and selecting the most logically plausible explanation for events. I have and need no 'faith', because, unlike the religious, I can be swayed by the evidence. If you can prove to me that there is a God, then I'll believe it. Otherwise, the most logical course of action is to assume there is none. I don't have 'faith' that there is no God, it is just the only rational assumption given the currently available data.

Ultimately, if someone wants to have blind faith, in the face of all the logical arguments arrayed before them, then they're not going to be persuaded otherwise. It is pointless to debate with such a person. I am not saying that one shouldn't make that choice, I'm just saying that one should acknowledge that one's position is irrational if one does.

[Assassin13]

It works in the other direction as well. Prove to me that there is no God in some way shape or form, I have faith but it is not set in stone.

Ultimately, if someone wants to have blind faith, in the face of all the logical arguments arrayed before them, then they're not going to be persuaded otherwise. It is pointless to debate with such a person. I am not saying that one shouldn't make that choice, I'm just saying that one should acknowledge that one's position is irrational if one does.

I do not have blind faith. I do question, and some days I wonder if there even is a god. Therefor, it is not irrational. How can you say that these are all logical arguements? I am a very scientific man and I over analyse everything yet I still believe in faith even though it may be contradictory. In the end Science and religion are working towards the same goal from opposite ends.

Also, Atheism is not Occams Razor. How can you prove that atheism is the most logical explaination. Mind you it is one but who decides if it is the simplest answer or not??

[Sterling]

How does inventing the existance of a entity, God, that is unnecessary for explaining the available data, constitute a simpler solution? If you're going to call for the existence of extra entities, like Gods, then surely the burden of proof is on you, not me.

You might just as well say "prove to me that the world was not created by my cat 3 minutes ago". Clearly, I cannot prove that it was not, but then again, nor should I have to in order to logically reject that hypothesis.

[Assassin13]

But the thing that I am getting to here is that you are saying I AM WRONG. Could it not be that neither of us knows the correct answer. What you are proving to me here is that when you are an Atheist you completely close off what other people believe because you feel it is wrong. I would never assume that. To each their own. I know, that I do not know what the truth is. Nor does anyone. I respect that you know what you believe because I do not.

In regards to your Cat Hypothesis. How can you say that the logical choice is to disregard it. That is assume that it is wrong then. The true logical choice would be "You know what Maybe the cat hypothesis is correct, maybe it is not. I am not going to disregard it as a possibility but at the same Time I am not going to put 100% belief into it as well.

[Sterling]

Okay, I'll amend: you are wrong for all practical purposes.

The key point here is information. We could argue about why the universe is here at all, or whether my (non-existent) cat created it three minutes ago. But it wouldn't matter what conclusion we came to, unless that conclusion had some consequences in terms of predicting future observable behaviour. If you want to believe in a God, because you like to have an explanation for why the universe is here, then that's fine. Where I take issue is when people start trying to extract information from non-information: they say "suppose there is a God", which is basically an information-free statement, and then extrapolate to all sorts of stuff about how one should conduct one's life, with no foundation whatever.

Aha, the religious say, but we do predict future behaviour. There's all that stuff about going to heaven or hell, which one could observe when one dies. In particular, they like to bring up Pascal's Wager, in an attempt to conclude that it is logical to believe in God 'just in case there is one'. However, as any first year logic student can tell you, Pascal's Wager is a fatally flawed argument for all sorts of reasons (search Google, there are literally dozens and dozens of pages explaining this in great detail), not least of which that it only supposes there is one religion to choose from. What Pascal's Wager tells you is that logically, you should believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn (http://www.palmyra.demon.co.uk/humour/ipu.htm), because the rewards for belief are infinite, as is the punishment for non-belief. Needless to say, no-one takes the Invisible Pink Unicorn very seriously either.

[Drunk69]

So sterling how would you explain the creation of earth and the whole universe? Would you side with the common non-religous theory of a big bang?

[Assassin13]

You seem to be going off on a tangent here. I was never arguing that you are wrong. I respect what you believe. It is obvious that we will never agree and that will most likely never change.

I was just trying to show you that what you had posted seemed flawed to me is all and wanted to discuss that with you. I personally have faith in a higher being you do not. I do not know the truth, nor do you. Unfortunately that realization will not come until we pass on.

Can we agree to disagree then?
Thankyou I have not had this much enjoyment in a very long while. But if we continue it will just become a cyclical arguement.

P.S. Feel free to PM me anytime if you would like a response to you last post about the pink unicorn.

[Sterling]

I don't think I am going off on a tangent, I'm getting to the heart of why having faith is logically flawed. My point is that the religious point of view is necessarily irrational, and therefore it's impossible to debate.

Drunk69: You raise a good point. I suppose that I do subscribe to the leading cosmological theories about the origin of the Universe. However, that still leaves open the question as to why the physical laws are the way they are. There are actually some attempts to explain that in an evolutionary framework, but even if you buy that, it still leaves open the meta-question of 'how did that get started'

However, even if ultimately you have to throw up your hands and invoke a supernatural force, it seems to me that there is no information in that conclusion - you might just as well say "I don't know". The reason for this is that it is, pretty much by definition, impossible to deduce any of the properties of said supernatural force, so you might just as well ignore it in any discussion. Where religions go logically awry is that they start trying to ascribe properties and behaviour to an entity about which we can necessarily know nothing.

[love_tattoos]

Far be it from me to jump in the middle of a debate - I avoid them at all costs. But I think I'll jump in here just to express my opinion.......be kind when responding to this as I cry easily. :)

I would like to believe that there is a super-natural being somewhere out there watching over us - but without undenying proof, I find it hard to believe one way or the other. I have nothing against religion if it helps people walk the right path through this life. I have a friend that was a hard core drug addict and with the help of rehab and "finding God" she has turned her life around. If God is the reason she stays clean, then more power to her. I don't debate religion, ghosts, spirits, guardian angles, etc. with anyone because I don't want people to tell me they don't exist. I believe what I want to believe and I think that my beliefs are personal and don't need to be out there for people to tell me they do or don't exist and why. Which is one reason I have a problem with people knocking on my door wanting to discuss their beliefs with me. If I want to find it I know where to go. Don't come to my door and try to sway me one way or the other.

[Redallnite]

There has to be a higher power out there.......... :)

[usantic]

* Dives into these deep waters once again *
I have faith that it all boils down to good and evil, ying and yang, positive and negative forces constantly doing battle in orbit around one another. My question throughout life has been involved in occurrences that went beyond coincidence.
What happens when one force overwhelms the other? Is there a little pop or flash or transmission of energy? I know there is something beyond yet I question it everyday. I don't side with religion (throughout time, the major cause of war)or atheism (a stoic resignation that the of people on this Earth are merely hurtling along through space onna ball of dirt and water). Peace on Earth. Goodwill toward men. Live long and prosper.:cheesy:

[kittyroze]

Hmm...so much to address. In my experience, I have found religion to be a coping mechanism. Nothing more than a desperate attempt to find structure in a universe that tends towards choas. It is fine to have your beliefs if they are what comfort you. I just find more solid strength (personally) in sticking with hard, cold fact. I find nothing wrong with my purpose in life being...well...not really being anything. It's something I decide for myself. I don't need a (insert your deity here) to guide me on a "path". I'm perfectly content reveling in the wonder of coincidence.

[usantic]

Originally posted by kittyroze
I find nothing wrong with my purpose in life being...well...not really being anything.

I like your phraseology here kitty. May I just tweak it a bit?
Being is your purpose in life.
The God of Abraham was called Jaweh, which translates to,,,,,,,,,,,,,Being.

[kittyroze]

That's it exactly, usantic. Thanks! My reason for being being being itself is just fine by me. Read that a few times if you don't get it right off. I love having just used one word three times to get a point across. Woot.

[thestarsfall]

im not gonna argue with you ppl cuz your all older and therefore 'more wiser' than me so ill just state the fact that i believe in one triune God and i am a Christian

[usantic]

Well done twitch! No need to argue amongst friends. Don't assume that age brings the bestest intuitive thought process though. (That chile is sooooooo sweet!)

[thestarsfall]

age doesnt bring wisdom...i know that...age brings some knowledge but wisdom is understanding that you really dont know anything and everything is complex in a simple way...besides i know some ppl my age or close to that are much wiser than some 40 years olds...heh

[kittyroze]

With age comes cyncism and apathy...not always...but often...I love to see the idealism of younger people. New fresh ideas and uninhibited creativity.

[usantic]

Sterling, I hope you are still checking out this thread. I wanted to ask you if you had ever heard Hawking ever refer to God in his lectures or interviews. I believe he had mentioned God towards the end of his television guide through the universe. Any thoughts?

[dc]

You fuckers need to grow up.

[Diva]

You care to emote on that with an explaination, or did you just feel like insulting people today?

[dc]

Agnostic, Athiest ...
I wish it was that easy.
RATIONALIZING everytinhg.

I don't have the time. I figured this stuff out awhile back.
Yes honey, I like

[kittyroze]

Somebody apparently got their panties in a bundle.

[GLADIATOR]

Faith gives us the courage to live and do. Scientists, with their disciplined thinking, like others, need a basis for the good life, for aspiration, for courage to do great deeds. They need faith to live by.
The hope of the world lies in those that have such faith and who use the methods of science to make their visions become real. Visions and hope and faith are not part of science. They are beyond the nature that science knows. Of such is the religion that gives meaning to life.


"There are far more things in Heaven and earth, than are dreampt about in your philosophies Horatio."

[Sterling]

Sterling, I hope you are still checking out this thread. I wanted to ask you if you had ever heard Hawking ever refer to God in his lectures or interviews.
Actually, I was once lucky enough to go to one of Stephen Hawking's lectures while I was at Cambridge. It was a pretty technical lecture about some aspect of his work on black holes, much of which was over my head. At the end, there was time for a few questions. The thing you don't realise until you've seen him do it in person is just how long it takes him to input text into his voice synthesiser - it's about 5 minutes of waiting for each answer. So he only took a couple of questions. Inevitably, someone asked him whether he believed in God, which honestly was an out-of-place question in a technical lecture - you could almost see him rolling his eyes, as he said something non-committal and suggested reading his book. That question pissed me off, because it sucked up valuable time he could have been using to address some interesting technical point.

Anyway, if you read his book, I think he mostly uses it as a marketing gimmick ("once we've answered that question, we will know the mind of God" or some such). I get the impression that he thinks of God as just a shorthand for 'boundary conditions for the Universe', without attaching any spiritual significance.

Faith gives us the courage to live and do. Scientists, with their disciplined thinking, like others, need a basis for the good life, for aspiration, for courage to do great deeds.
This, on the other hand, is just plain insulting. Exactly where the hell do you get off suggesting that I need to have faith in order to live a good life or have the courage to do great deeds? I don't have faith, but I'm still a moral person. Look up the philosophy of ethics sometime.

In fact, it scares the hell out of me that you think the only reason you're not out murdering people right now is that the Big Ghost In The Sky is telling you not to.

[kittyroze]

Although not as analytical as Sterling's response I would like to say "woot, tell it brothah!". I agree whole heartedly...I've ended several relationships with people who have "faith" just in case, or to make sure they have something to base their moral convictions off of. If you need a big omnipresent being to tell you what to do with yourself in your life...well...it's unfortunate you aren't strong enough to stand on your own. Courage should be based on your convictions...and those convictions should be your own...from looking at things, analyzing things, from picking them apart, from understanding...not the easy "How to" book written years and years ago...self-help books and fad diets are at the same level in my opinion. It just serves as something for people to cling to as they try and figure things out when they don't know to look to themselves. Unfortunate, really.

I recognize the value of religion and faith for some who need that "crutch", but I definitely see it as a coping mechanism. Something to be let go of once they don't need it anymore, and again, really shouldn't be used at all. You should be strong enough to stand alone.

[Gracie]

Yes honey, I like

hehe you're too smooth dc :)

I'll bite on this just cause its a life question for all people. What are we doing here and how did it happen. Someone was right a while back when they stated we will never know truely until we die. I am ok with that statement. I dont look for it nor do i wish to find it.

[Jake]

While I think that the Bible gives some great references to what morals are, I agree that to claim the Bible is where the rules start and stop are a crutch for people who are not willing to stand by what they believe to be right.

[usantic]

Hmmmm, Would one have to have faith that there is a singularity?
*********************grins************************

[Sterling]

I assume you're trying to equate a subscription to the latest cosmological theories with faith. This is clearly bogus. I don't have faith in the cosmological theories, I simply see them as the currently most persuasive explanation for the available evidence. I fully expect them to be refined and altered in the future, and I do not rule out the possibility of additional evidence being discovered invalidating some of our current ideas. Faith does not enter into it.

[usantic]

Just a thought

[Assassin13]

Sterling.... I know this is a long long tie in the past but I would like to ask you: What are your reasons for living the life you live? Why do you do good? Why do you do evil? Why do you do anything?

I know it has nothing to do with spirituality or 'Faith' so what exactly is it?