Campus Shooting In Virginia

[entipy]

In case some of you hadn't heard about this. Still not many details but... *sigh*

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/04/16/virginia-tech-070416.html

[pilsbury]

Been following this story on Fox news and CNN, worse campus shooting ever according to what I've heard.

Terrible news.

[Bassmama]

4 PM eastern time- at least 32 people dead including the shooter. MULTIPLE people injured. The count isn't done yet.

WTF!??!!

[Amaurote]

You know, as much as this lends support to a firearm ban, my instant reaction is that I'm sick to death of spree killers and serial killers: whoever this is, he has no grandeur or worth, he's just a dull, whiny narcissist - the most boring, weak, limp-wristed reaction to adversity in life is to go out and hurt other people using a projectile weapon. If it were left to me I'd strike his name from all the reports and chronicles, disinfect his house and pour his ashes into a sewer.

[Mr. Bojangles]

You know, as much as this lends support to a firearm ban, my instant reaction is that I'm sick to death of spree killers and serial killers: whoever this is, he has no grandeur or worth, he's just a dull, whiny narcissist - the most boring, weak, limp-wristed reaction to adversity in life is to go out and hurt other people using a projectile weapon. If it were left to me I'd strike his name from all the reports and chronicles, disinfect his house and pour his ashes into a sewer.



Pay attention children, this is how a professional insults someone.


BTW, I wholeheartedly agree sir.

[Unforgiven]

Any word on motive?

[Bassmama]

10AM- I just finished watching a press conferance. They have a "person of interest" detained for the first 2 murders in the dormatory. The man was caught soon after the killings took place. 2 Hours after those killings, a Korean resident student of the college went into a classroom building & began going through it from room to room shooting as many people as he could shoot, then committed suicide as police were in the building going for him- they hadn't yet gotten him in sight, but were in the hallway when the last shots were fired. He was killing #33.

One of the guns- a 9mm- was conclusively linked to both killing events.

Motive is not known.

I feel ill. My heart breaks for everyone that will be touched negatively by these senseless slaughterings- families, friends, college employees, police & ambulance agencies, the town... Banning guns is NOT the answer, IMHO. A gun can easily be made with pipe, wood, & other everyday items, & I honestly believe that banning guns will take them away from honest gun owners & leave them in the hands of dishonest & mentally diseased ones.

I don't know WHAT the answer is, but that's not the issue here- the compassion for the survivors is, as far as I'm concerned. It's going to take a LONG time for this pain to ease for those directly affected & I send my sincerest sympathies their way.

The authorities will deal with the rest.

[Unforgiven]

A gun can easily be made with pipe, wood, & other everyday items...

I beg to differ, and would say that only a relatively small amount of people in the country could actually build a working firearm from everyday items. The Unibomber, if I remember correctly, made a single-shot .22 out of wood and a pipe and other things, but he's hardly your average criminal.

[entipy]

The only answer is that it was, yet, another human tragedy. The only answer is to hold accountable the PEOPLE who perpetrate these acts. Luckily, this guy took care of that for us. At least he's dead.

[Bassmama]

I beg to differ, and would say that only a relatively small amount of people in the country could actually build a working firearm from everyday items. The Unibomber, if I remember correctly, made a single-shot .22 out of wood and a pipe and other things, but he's hardly your average criminal.
You can beg all you want- I've seen one that a very unstable & not terribly bright man had made (Someone contacted the local sherrif soon afterwards & he was caught.) & I could EASILY make one, as did he. Mebbe you should hear from some law enforcement members (especially ones that work in jails/prisons) & find out just how ingenious most of the prison population members are. As a matter of fact, anyone that has a working knowledge of firearms could build one- and some people that goofed around with rockets etc. as a kid would be able to figure it out. It takes minimal imagination & dexterity. And for those that don't have them, they could get instructions off the internet or from friends.

BTW- can I watch you beg? I LOVE a man that begs....

[equeleni]

There was another scare on that campus today.. Thank God it was just a false alarm

[pilsbury]

Latest information suggests that it was known this guy was a danger 18 months ago.

Also he managed to obtain a gun with ease, no background check.

I hate to say this but this mass murder could of been prevented.

[entipy]

Mass murders maybe can be prevented. Mass murderers really can't.

[Unforgiven]

Mass murders maybe can be prevented. Mass murderers really can't.

Surprisingly well said.

[Amaurote]

I bet the people of Baghdad are wondering what all the fuss is about - they lost five times as many people today in a series of horrible bomb attacks and barely anybody noticed.

[entipy]

Surprisingly well said.

Why surprisingly? You find me inarticulate? :p


I bet the people of Baghdad are wondering what all the fuss is about - they lost five times as many people today in a series of horrible bomb attacks and barely anybody noticed.

Exactly. Callousness is relative.

[JakeD]

I bet the people of Baghdad are wondering what all the fuss is about - they lost five times as many people today in a series of horrible bomb attacks and barely anybody noticed.

"Oh, you silly bleeding-heart libtard! Nobody cares when it's all brown people!"

[Unforgiven]

Why surprisingly? You find me inarticulate? :p

Heh, I just phrased it that way to tease you ;)

Also, about Iraq - that's because it's expected. No one expects 30+ dead people in a university in the United States. 30+ dead in Baghdad? It's business as usual, sadly.

[Amaurote]

I'm just wondering, do you think the Iraqi people could be the new Dodo? There can't be very many of them left by now, surely - once all the civilians are dead the US can revert to a regular war, reduce the insurgents to ash and plant Old Glory beside a geyser right smack bang in the middle of Skull Mountain.

[Amaurote]

Also, about Iraq - that's because it's expected. No one expects 30+ dead people in a university in the United States. 30+ dead in Baghdad? It's business as usual, sadly.

170+, Unfy. Today is the worst attack since Surge began.

[entipy]

Heh, I just phrased it that way to tease you ;)

Mm hmm. Sure. :p

[Mr. Bojangles]

Latest information suggests that it was known this guy was a danger 18 months ago.

Also he managed to obtain a gun with ease, no background check.

I hate to say this but this mass murder could of been prevented.


Sure. All of the psychic mediums in the area could have told the cops that this fuckstick was gonna go on a rampage. Then the police could have staked out the school waiting for the idiot to appear.


The notion that the availability of guns is the problem is the kind of kneejerk reaction that makes me sick. Whether the dude bought the weapon at a gun show, an individual or a drug dealer is immaterial. He chose to use it on other people. Not the fault of the gun.

[Unforgiven]

170+, Unfy. Today is the worst attack since Surge began.

Most Americans probably don't realize that. We just hear a daily report of "Shit is blowing up and people are dead". I don't think most people care enough to know the numbers.

[Bassmama]

The killler sent a package of things to NBC news between killing the first 2 students & the last 30 + himself. Press release going on right now- he sent pictures, a letter, manifesto- long & rambling- more will be released later. Not much can be said right now, except it proves that he was very mentally disturbed.

There was also a report that about a year ago a psychologist had evaluated him & concluded that he was a danger to people around him. Too bad the school wasn't notified, or if they were, didn't pay attention to the report.

Am- I'm very aware about the extreme death rates of the wars this country's involved in. Too bad King George isn't required to attend every funeral for every one of them.

[Amaurote]

It's risen to 200 now. This is no ordinary day, even in war-torn Baghdad.

[Unforgiven]

I know it's old and cliche now, but...

"Bring it on"

[Diva]

It's risen to 200 now. This is no ordinary day, even in war-torn Baghdad.

... How fitting.

[trekbugging]

well we as americans haven't had the religious fanaticism as many other coutries around the world have had-- we haven't gone thru the genocide of major amounts of people on our land-- sarcasm- we are superior, we rule the world and if you don't bow to us we will put you down--ok back to reality-- as americans we just really havn't had the tragidies that other coutries have had-- no warlords over serfs, yes we had slaves but was there a major genocide of them?--yes many were killed but it was mostly in a small part of our country--even our civil war killed many but didn't destroy a whole section of the country--

we have never lived in fear that when you went to the mall you may not come back, or learn to use a gun at 12 years old because the army may need you soon--

even when we go to other countries we use our arrogance and expect them to speak english-- (i include myself in this group) when i went to germany i learned some german--but mostly didn't use it

yes you could say english is the universal language so everyone should learn it and that is true, but how many people do you know who lived in a foreign country with a language other that english and they didn't even put forth the effort to learn that language?

what is the answer-- maybe i digressed from the original thought, but i don't have the answer--but do know blaming all the people who "tested" this guy and now it is their fault for letting this happen: is NOT the answer-- i think bass said it right when she said mass murderers happen -- should we lock up anyone with a bad thought--hell i would have been locked up when i was young--but the difference is I didn't act upon it--this fucker acted upon those bad thoughts--and didn't reveal it in a VERY overt manner before hand-- i don't think anyone knew the deapths of this fuckers fucked up mind

[Bones]

Banning guns is NOT the answer, IMHO. A gun can easily be made with pipe, wood, & other everyday items,


I beg to differ, and would say that only a relatively small amount of people in the country could actually build a working firearm from everyday items.

MY family owns a shotgun that was made by my great grandfather with a fence post and a steel pipe. Making a gun is easy.

[Bones]

I bet the people of Baghdad are wondering what all the fuss is about - they lost five times as many people today in a series of horrible bomb attacks and barely anybody noticed.

There's a big difference. There is a war going on over there. We know people will die there everyday. Soldiers, terrorists, insurgents and unfortunately civilians. It's a war and that happens whether we like it or not. These people died while trying to get an education. There is no comparison. Trying to compare the two is ridiculous and wrong to both the people of this tragedy and the people who die everyday in Iraq . When people try to compare things in this manner I realize why I'm not a liberal. Trying to use this to voice opposition to the war is just wrong. I'm against the war. But using this as a platform for that would have never crossed my mind.

/me steps off soapbox.

[Amaurote]

There's a big difference. There is a war going on over there. We know people will die there everyday. Soldiers, terrorists, insurgents and unfortunately civilians. It's a war and that happens whether we like it or not. These people died while trying to get an education. There is no comparison. Trying to compare the two is ridiculous and wrong to both the people of this tragedy and the people who die everyday in Iraq . When people try to compare things in this manner I realize why I'm not a liberal. Trying to use this to voice opposition to the war is just wrong. I'm against the war. But using this as a platform for that would have never crossed my mind.

* Bones steps off soapbox.

I think that's completely disingenuous: to begin with, the war proper was declared over three years go, and these were attacks on the general population, not the US military as your post implies; secondly, we know that people will die in mass shootings in America - the real question after this isn't whether it will happen again, but when; thirdly, what happened in Iraq wasn't just "another day in Paradise", it was a record-breaking murder spree in a series of high-profile, well-coordinated attacks against a foreign military power which is thanks to Surge supposed to be providing more security and protection to the Iraqi people than ever before. I think the fact that Vtech knocked the socks off that headline (and it did the same here as well as in US, which is arguably even more unforgiveable) speaks volumes about Allied priorities.


Lastly, I reject anyone's characterisation of me as a "liberal": I'll never be that right-wing and wishy-washy. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it's pretty funny when republicans regard the mere drawing of analogies as somehow traitorous or morally suspect - with that mindset at ground level it's no wonder the Bush regime polarizes everything it touches.

[kittyroze]

MY family owns a shotgun that was made by my great grandfather with a fence post and a steel pipe. Making a gun is easy.

Eek.

On another note, I'm not sure how all of you are defining liberals. I consider myself to be one and I am certainly not right-wing. If you do a quick search on dictionary.com you come up with a decent version my preferred definition: "Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded."

I'm incredibly nervous about people wanting to increase the actions we can take against people who are socially reclusive. I'm also nervous about how the V.T. incident will effect the treatment of those who have mental health issues and AREN'T sociopathic. People already assume that if you're bipolar or schizophrenic or depressed (etc.) that you're a loose cannon, just waiting to be set off. It feels like it's only going to get worse. We are also walking a fine line between allowing free speech and protecting people. I've heard people saying that Cho should have been expelled for what he wrote in his creative English papers. A student at CU Boulder was arrested for saying that he could understand Cho's frustration with the wealthy privillaged students at the school. There's a big difference between those two things and actually making threats.

Splashing all of this V.T. information all over the news, especially the videos of Cho and the pictures of him pointing guns at the camera is horrific. I feel horrible for the families and friends of the victims who are forced to view the last things their loved ones saw before they were murdered. I'm also concerned that the glorifying of the event is the cause of all of the copycat threats - my little brother's school went into lockdown on Wednesday.

As for the war in Iraq, which Bush Co. still doesn't like that we're calling it war, I'm deeply saddened by the fact that there's little to no coverage of it. We get a death count for our soldiers but have absolutely no idea how the Iraqi people are being affected. (Hell, we have no idea how the rest of the world is doing, in general.) It's like when there's a record setting earthquake somewhere, thousands are killed and we only hear about the two American tourists that were effected.

[Bones]

not the US military as your post implies;

It implied no such thing. I think it is all wrong. I just don't see the comparison. There is a huge difference.


I'm incredibly nervous about people wanting to increase the actions we can take against people who are socially reclusive.

Except for on this site , I am socially reclusive. Ask Equeleni. She will tell you.

[equeleni]

It's true. I think Bones would rather stay at home and never leave his room and just be on his computer. Heck I think the only time he leaves his room is to go to his dad's, the bathroom, to feed Dumbass, and when I go over there.

[Bones]

It's true. I think Bones would rather stay at home and never leave his room and just be on his computer. Heck I think the only time he leaves his room is to go to his dad's, the bathroom, to feed Dumbass, and when I go over there.

I'd swim through the ether to Venus for you. Through the cosmic rays and beyond.

Damnit!!!! You ruined my political mood. :love::love::love::love:

[entipy]

Splashing all of this V.T. information all over the news [...] the glorifying of the event is the cause of all of the copycat threats - my little brother's school went into lockdown on Wednesday.

This sums it up in a nutshell for me. If anyone is looking to place blame for the "horrible state" of our country/world/planet and the seemingly overwhelming abundance of violence, one need look no further than the media.

Humans are, by nature, violent. It's part of our species. However, there is usually a great deal of distance between what one will THINK and what one will DO. Seeing things like this splashed all over every television channel and newspaper within hours of the occurrence does nothing more than feed nervous energies and latent ideas which might otherwise come to nothing.

This is why I don't generally watch the news. I don't really care that some man killed his pregnant ex-wife all the way on the other side of the country. Unless something directly affects me and my family, I really don't care to know about it. I'm not so crass as to say I don't care that there were over 30 people killed on a college campus. I think it's a horrible tragedy, but I get so damn sick of seeing people throwing blame all over the place, I could spit.

Our country is overwhelmed by a state of "IT'S NOT MY FAULT," and I'm really freakin' tired of it. It's not the right to bear arms which causes people to kill each other. It's not the right-wing or the left-wing. It's the inability to suppress innate human feelings and keep them from becoming action. This differs from person to person. If so many people didn't know about so many horrible things that happen, they might not have more than a fleeting thought about them, but when mentally unstable - or just dreadfully violent - people see their thoughts come to fruition via someone else, it can often trigger something in them. "Hey! I could be famous, too. I could do that, too. I can kill a bunch of people and then die. What the hell? I hate my life, anyway."

I feel like I'm rambling more than I wanted to and not making a lot of sense, so I hope some of y'all are able to follow this. I don't want misconceptions, here. I am not for ignorance. Nor am I for folks hiding their heads in the sand and not knowing anything. Nor am I for a Big Brother approach where we're not given information we might need or want. However, I *am* for more news reporting and less sensationalism. The very night after this shooting incident occurred, ABC cancelled its regularly scheduled programming to broadcast a special "report" about the occurrence. I saw the intro, and I got disgusted. The VERY night. Here are images of victims and students splashed across the television screen, complete with dramatic and touching music, and I just wanted to smash someone. Give people some respect. You can report what happened without all the hoo-ha that goes along with it.

I fucking hate it. It makes me sick. This dude shot a bunch of people. Because it was broadcast all over the planet, some other unstable person might get the notion to do the same. Columbine all over again.

Okay, now that I've said the same thing - probably quite inarticulately, Unfy :p - I will shut up.

disclaimer: If there is incorrect grammar or misused vocabulary in here, feel free to sue me.

[kittyroze]

I still think most things need to be reported on, but I pretty much agree with you Entipy. They just go too far (like the pictures, photos, etc.).

It would help if it weren't the job of the news hour/news stations/newspapers/radio news/etc. to make money. They have to act as a business - which has had an awful effect on journalism.

[Bones]

I'm just glad we have a place to agree to disagree and still be friends.

[kittyroze]

I'm just glad we have a place to agree to disagree and still be friends.

I'm sorry? What did you say? I was distracted by all of the nakedness in the shoutbox. :shs:

[Bones]

This is a good site for friends to have different opinions. Thank the Diva for that. I won't apologize for the shout box. I have a thing for that girl that won't go away.

And once again we have turned a serious thread into something else

[trekbugging]

now have you heard the latest--their was a memorial build for people to honor those dead (students) and someone put a stone on memorial for cho--WTF??? again WTF???? this bastard killed people--HE DOESN'T DESERVE TO BE REMEMBORED put him in some unmarked grave and let the worms eat his rotten arse-- to put a stone for him on a memorial that is to honor those dead is like adding the names of the terorist to the memorial at the 9/11 site--- ARRRGGGGGGG are we so political that because he was a student too and died (killed himself) that we will honor him also???????????????

[entipy]

And once again we have turned a serious thread into something else

Not WE. YOU. :p

[kittyroze]

I'm getting really cranky about all of the scares again. There's apparently a gunman at the NASA building in Houston - shots were fired, but there are no reported injuries. And, in my local news, a student at CU Boulder was just arrested for having a cache of weapons and hundreds of rounds of ammunition in his dorm room. Another Colorado school had a small bomb go off. Oh, and a car exploded near Denver. WTF.

[Amaurote]

It implied no such thing. I think it is all wrong. I just don't see the comparison. There is a huge difference.

Yes there is - about 170 lives, I believe. The point I'm making is that that difference is a secondary headline in the Anglo-American press, and it stinks - to say that "There is no comparison" is to miss the fact that the event we saw is not just another day of losses in Iraq. You might just as well say that because there are so many gun-related deaths in the US every day, the 32 and plus lives that were lost at Vtech weren't that exceptional.

Kittyroze, I'm not saying liberals are right-wing, I'm saying I could never be that right-wing - all of the liberals I know place social justice and bread-and-butter issues like redistribution of wealth well down the agenda below middle-class obsessions like electoral and constitutional reform...they're also notably ambivalent about trade unions whenever it comes to the crunch of a major industrial dispute. The Democrats are a classic example - they're happy enough to take trade union money, but
in their hearts they're much happier with middle-class voters, which is why even a moderately centre-left candidate like Howard Dean terrified the life out of them. Most of them can't even make their mind up about socialized medicine.

[Bones]

Not WE. YOU. :p

Kitty, Equeleni and I. I won't except all the blame. But it was worth it. I think I made a new friend. :beer:

[equeleni]

Bones can't take all the blame.. I was having too much fun and didn't wanna stop.

[kittyroze]

Kittyroze, I'm not saying liberals are right-wing, I'm saying I could never be that right-wing - all of the liberals I know place social justice and bread-and-butter issues like redistribution of wealth well down the agenda below middle-class obsessions like electoral and constitutional reform...they're also notably ambivalent about trade unions whenever it comes to the crunch of a major industrial dispute. The Democrats are a classic example - they're happy enough to take trade union money, but
in their hearts they're much happier with middle-class voters, which is why even a moderately centre-left candidate like Howard Dean terrified the life out of them. Most of them can't even make their mind up about socialized medicine.

Maybe my best friend and I are weird, but we're both super pro-union, and very very pro-socialized medicine :) She actually works for the unions, but is going to go on to run a political campaign. Plus redistribution of wealth was a very liberal issue, from what I understood. Perhaps I'm a different breed of liberal than you are used to?

Liberals are generally considered left-wing in my circles, is there any chance we're working with different definitions for our terms?

[JakeD]

Maybe my best friend and I are weird, but we're both super pro-union, and very very pro-socialized medicine :) She actually works for the unions, but is going to go on to run a political campaign. Plus redistribution of wealth was a very liberal issue, from what I understood. Perhaps I'm a different breed of liberal than you are used to?

Liberals are generally considered left-wing in my circles, is there any chance we're working with different definitions for our terms?

Plus there's the terms within the terms like "progressive", "centrist", "moderate"...there's tons of labels upon labels. I used to be more centrist, but I've started shying away from things like the death penalty. I think I've edged more towards the "progressive" label within the past few years.

[Bones]

Maybe my best friend and I are weird, but we're both super pro-union, and very very pro-socialized medicine :) She actually works for the unions, but is going to go on to run a political campaign. Plus redistribution of wealth was a very liberal issue, from what I understood. Perhaps I'm a different breed of liberal than you are used to?

Liberals are generally considered left-wing in my circles, is there any chance we're working with different definitions for our terms?

I think we are all working towards the same goals. We just see different paths to work it with. I'm a moderate whatever that means. I kinda look at liberals and conservatives as not seeing a middle ground. I used to be very hard core Republican. I had to step away and look at it from a different point of view. And that made some people I know look at me and say WTF?

[JakeD]

Another thing. I can't help but laaaaaugh my ass off at these doughy (http://thinkprogress.org/2007/04/17/more-blaming-the-victim/) right-wing (http://www.salon.com/opinion/walsh/politics/2007/04/18/wingnuts/index.html) jackasses (http://tbogg.blogspot.com/2007/04/opportunism-watch-with-information.html) who thumped their chests and boasted about how the students should have been manly men and women and taken up arms against Cho, and how if there were more guns on campus, this would have been over immediately.

Conveniently, they seem to have completely overlooked the actions of Liviu Librescu (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070418.SHOOTISRAEL18/TPStory/TPInternational/America/), which were pretty fucking ballsy given the circumstances.

Otherwise, why aren't these badass, steely-eyed, stone-cold motherfuckers staring down armed insurgents in Iraq?

I'm sure with the amount of bare-chested, lean, muscular kickassery that they seem to sweat from every single pore, Johnny Jihadi would be too busy quaking in his sandals to scream "ALLAHU AKBAR! AYYAYAYAYAYAYIIII!!!" and empty a clip into a crowd of innocents at an open-air market.

Or maybe it's just the fact that they're perfectly comfortable running their Cheeto-stained fingers over their doughy, white manboobs while pretending to have pecs of iron and arms of some other really awesome-sounding metal that could brandish AK-47s better than Arnie in Commando and repeating to themselves, "I'm fighting a war on our own soil. It's a war of ideas, against the filthy freedom-hating liberal menace. Why, if it wasn't for being so sugar-crashed on Mountain Dew, I'd get up from this chair right now, walk outside, and kick me some LIBTARD ASS! ....Oh, Chester Cheetah, your tasty snacks seduct me...*nom nom nom*"

Fuck these idiots and their Monday-morning quarterbacking. Let's see you get unwittingly locked into a classroom, then have some guy come in and start offing people left and right. Between the gunshots, the smoke, the screams, the blood, and the utter fucking panic, let's see if you really do have the chutzpah and the time to rally together four of your other balls-of-steel right-wing columnist pals, merge together like a gigantic neo-conservative motherfuckin' Optimus Prime, and show that filthy foreigner what real American men do in that situation.

Odds are, you pricks would be crapping your pants and screaming for Mommy. Go take a long walk off of a short pier, assholes.

[Amaurote]

Maybe my best friend and I are weird, but we're both super pro-union, and very very pro-socialized medicine :) She actually works for the unions, but is going to go on to run a political campaign. Plus redistribution of wealth was a very liberal issue, from what I understood. Perhaps I'm a different breed of liberal than you are used to?

Liberals are generally considered left-wing in my circles, is there any chance we're working with different definitions for our terms?

The problem with the US is that socialism has been so anathematized during the period when the Pinkerton men were routinely blasting away miners that there are some people who espouse forms of socialism like collectivized healthcare who are called "liberals" because Cobb and Brown aside, there are no really well-known open socialists any more: it would be very strange indeed if someone like Walt Brown were to be called a "liberal", because that political philosophy is all about reducing state power, refusing to define merit bads and merit goods, and embracing laissez-faire methods. Above all, socialism is about democracy in the workplace, and I've yet to meet a liberal who doesn't get cold feet about that - nearly all the liberals knocking about in this country are middle-class people who want to knock the Tories but are afraid of voting for more left-wing options and paying for the right to do so. Here, the Liberal Party was destroyed by a triple alliance of mass strikes, the suffragette movement and a Tory rebellion in Ulster - it was so obsessed with nice dinner party issues like temperance and free trade that it just couldn't get to grips with the concept of social revolution and mass poverty.

[Bassmama]

Mass poverty? Where? Here in the US? Listen to King George & you'll get the idea REAL QUICK that there's ALMOST no such thing. (After all- if you ignore 'them', & don't see 'them', they don't exist. Right?)

Anyway- back to the VTech thing- I heard the idiots that said all the students should be armed. Fucking morons! It's REAL easy to sit on your ass in front of a puter & say "...shoulda... I woulda..." I WANT to see them in the position those students were in. I WANT to see if they would stand with their body against the door holding it shut while students jumped out of 2nd floor windows to escape & give their measly lives doing so. I'd bet what little $$ I have that they wouldn't do it- they'd be kicking students out of the way to escape first.

BTW- the professor that did block the doorway is credited with saving his students' lives. He was a Holocaust survivor, & the bullets that came through the door killed him, but he saved countless students that would have died otherwise. He was given full orthodox jewish honors at his funeral & flown to Israel to be buried. Liviu Librescu (http://voanews.com/english/2007-04-20-voa30.cfm) is the hero's name. Because of him, the death toll wasn't as high as it could have been.

I also feel badly for the killer's family. They are in shock & sorrow. They lost a son/brother that they had no idea was as sick as he was, and whose actions have confused, terrified, & brought shame & sorrow to their family.

[Bones]

Mass poverty?

WTF is that? Oh yeah the thing I see every time I walk out my front door. I think it's that thing involving hungry kids running around in their underwear. Or the mother begging for food cause her old man is spending their little bit of money smoking crack. I may be wrong. Wait, I am. Poverty doesn't exist. Silly me.

[kittyroze]

The problem with the US is that socialism has been so anathematized during the period when the Pinkerton men were routinely blasting away miners that there are some people who espouse forms of socialism like collectivized healthcare who are called "liberals" because Cobb and Brown aside, there are no really well-known open socialists any more: it would be very strange indeed if someone like Walt Brown were to be called a "liberal", because that political philosophy is all about reducing state power, refusing to define merit bads and merit goods, and embracing laissez-faire methods. Above all, socialism is about democracy in the workplace, and I've yet to meet a liberal who doesn't get cold feet about that - nearly all the liberals knocking about in this country are middle-class people who want to knock the Tories but are afraid of voting for more left-wing options and paying for the right to do so. Here, the Liberal Party was destroyed by a triple alliance of mass strikes, the suffragette movement and a Tory rebellion in Ulster - it was so obsessed with nice dinner party issues like temperance and free trade that it just couldn't get to grips with the concept of social revolution and mass poverty.

I still think we may be talking with different definitions. The Liberal party you're talking about doesn't sound like something I'd be in support of. We don't have a liberal party or a left-wing party. It's pretty much just the democrats, republicans and the occassional green or libertarian. Typically modern liberals here are left-wing democrats or members of the green party (left meaning progressive aka liberal aka somewhat socialist) Reducing government power and empowering the corporations, or endorsing laissez-faire capitalism, is a fusion of the ideals of libertarian party and the basic premise of the Bush administration (right-wing). The left wing/democrats/greens/liberals/etc in the states are for socialist programs. They want nationalized health care, they founded the system of social security, welfare, and medicare. Usually they're pro-education, pro-union, pro-gay rights, pro-women's rights, etc. These are the left-wing priorities.

From what it sounds like from watching the BBC, our democratic party sounds a little bit like your labour party. Does that sound about right to you? I'll admit, I don't have the greatest knowledge base when it comes to other countries - I'm ashamed of it, but I'm trying to get better :)

:hippi:

[Bones]

I'm a moderate Republican. The only one here in this nest of socialists.

/me ducks flying objects

[Amaurote]

I still think we may be talking with different definitions. The Liberal party you're talking about doesn't sound like something I'd be in support of. We don't have a liberal party or a left-wing party. It's pretty much just the democrats, republicans and the occassional green or libertarian. Typically modern liberals here are left-wing democrats or members of the green party (left meaning progressive aka liberal aka somewhat socialist) Reducing government power and empowering the corporations, or endorsing laissez-faire capitalism, is a fusion of the ideals of libertarian party and the basic premise of the Bush administration (right-wing). The left wing/democrats/greens/liberals/etc in the states are for socialist programs. They want nationalized health care, they founded the system of social security, welfare, and medicare. Usually they're pro-education, pro-union, pro-gay rights, pro-women's rights, etc. These are the left-wing priorities.

From what it sounds like from watching the BBC, our democratic party sounds a little bit like your labour party. Does that sound about right to you?

Oh yes, I appreciate there are left-wing Democrats - what annoys me is this description of them as "liberal Democrats" when someone who believes in collectivist solutions stands ideologically at the opposite pole from a liberal as we know them to be. I think the problem is that the word "socialist" is a dirty word over there - even before the red-baiting of the 1950s (when Democrats were amongst the worst offenders), harmless socialists like Eugene Debs were being locked up in prison. If someone is a socialist, why not just come right out and embrace the term? Whatever short-term tactical advantage there is in not calling yourself what you really are is lost by the long-term disadvantage of leaving the pejorative connotations of that term unchallenged.

Labour here is very much like the Democrats - Blair is a friend and admirer of Bill Clinton, and has taken his party well to the right on all kinds of issues over the years. The main distinction is that the trade unions here have an organic link through affiliation to the Labour Party (it was created by trade unions, whereas the Dems more or less predate their formation in US), whereas the Dems are generally just their biggest recipient of donations.

[Amaurote]

Hello goodbye (http://www.guardian.co.uk/usguns/Story/0,,2188398,00.html)

I'm amazed this is even news over there. Of course, this has nothing whatsoever to do with gun proliferation - the Republicans are quite right to point out that banning firearms would only lead to dyfunctional teenagers joining the circus, training as professional knife-throwers, and then spree-killing their classmates at medium-range with the contents of their moms' cutlery drawers.

[Amaurote]

Here we go again. Is it just me, or is the school-spree-killing cycle getting faster and faster with each passing year?

[Amaurote]

The teenager who killed eight during a shooting spree in an Omaha mall left a suicide note claiming he would now be famous, according to his landlord.

Lame (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article3010180.ece)

Don't flatter yourself, Sunny Jim - I've already forgotten who you are, and chances are by next week your pathetic emo killing spree will be wrapping someone's fish and chips.

[JakeD]

chances are by next week your pathetic emo killing spree will be wrapping someone's fish and chips.

This morning the bus passed by a homeless man wiping his arse with a copy of the LA Times' US section, so I'm really getting a kick out of this reply.

[JakeD]

It's odd, I keep thinking that the US has become so blasé about spree murderers - not a whole lot of chatter about this amongst the people I know.

Amaurote - I concede with your point and subsequently weep for humanity. Instead of investigating the cause behind these sorts of things (read: emo music, Morrissey, The Smiths, Republicans), we just sort of wait for it to go away.

[Bones]

we just sort of wait for it to go away.

I'm just jaded. I heard a bunch of gun shots about 3 this morning. I didn't any sirens afterwards, so I wasn't very concerned.

[Unforgiven]

I thought in Texas, gunfire was the standard greeting?

[Bones]

I thought in Texas, gunfire was the standard greeting?

No. Beer is the standard greeting. Gun fire is how we tell you to go away.

[Amaurote]

Just to confirm that the liberty to be shot dead is now part of the Constitution and the general public is now too inured to care any more about school shootings, I notice that this (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,330792,00.html) has had such limited coverage that it might as well never have happened: college murder is almost the norm now, and as we've seen, it almost runs like clockwork. Still, it beats the horrible oppressive tedium of not being able to own a lethal firearm, doesn't it?

[JakeD]

Just to confirm that the liberty to be shot dead is now part of the Constitution and the general public is now too inured to care any more about school shootings, I notice that this (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,330792,00.html) has had such limited coverage that it might as well never have happened: college murder is almost the norm now, and as we've seen, it almost runs like clockwork. Still, it beats the horrible oppressive tedium of not being able to own a lethal firearm, doesn't it?

Yeah, I'm kinda surprised by the lack of coverage on this one too. Otherwise, I've come to grips with the fact that there are idiots out there, and at least 1/3 of them are armed.

[Bassmama]

Maybe it's limited in the UK, but it's not here. Still the same pain, agony, confusion & memorials. It is NOT "the norm" here any more than it EVER was. The prevalence of the illness in this society & the greif it causes is just as tortuous & ongoing as it ever was, even tho it's becoming more frequent.

And since you have gotten sarcastic with your last statement, I will also. It must be nice to sit over there & be so almighty pios in a country where you're NOT ALLOWED THE FREEDOM OF CHOICE to own firearms. I guess slashing & disembowling is preferred? (Jack the Ripper) (http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/ripper/index_1.html) At least WE don't have have a "token family" of filthy rich "PROPER" people that we worship & have all the pomp & circumstance that your "Royals" do. (Wait a minute- I take that back- we have the Bush family, even tho they don't have the "Royal Crown Jewels" to display, if you don't count GW.)

[Amaurote]

Maybe it's limited in the UK, but it's not here. Still the same pain, agony, confusion & memorials. It is NOT "the norm" here any more than it EVER was. The prevalence of the illness in this society & the greif it causes is just as tortuous & ongoing as it ever was, even tho it's becoming more frequent.

And since you have gotten sarcastic with your last statement, I will also. It must be nice to sit over there & be so almighty pios in a country where you're NOT ALLOWED THE FREEDOM OF CHOICE to own firearms. I guess slashing & disembowling is preferred? (Jack the Ripper) (http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/ripper/index_1.html) At least WE don't have have a "token family" of filthy rich "PROPER" people that we worship & have all the pomp & circumstance that your "Royals" do. (Wait a minute- I take that back- we have the Bush family, even tho they don't have the "Royal Crown Jewels" to display, if you don't count GW.)

Hmmm...


What is PIOS ?

PIOS is a true 32 bit UNIX like operating system being developed by PIE Software Inc.

What is the purpose of PIOS?

The purpose of PIOS is to provide a stable multi-user high security platform that can be used as either a network server, programming work-horse or standard desktop home system. It is designed so that even the most complicated tasks are easy to do.

Well, as this forum's biggest Princess Diana fan (also Edward and the ginger one - both of them great blokes, or perhaps fillies) I'm all broken up about your monarchy-bashing, obviously, although I will muster the pitiful strength to note in passing that your example is both a little, ah, less contemporary, shall we say, and that the main suspect was an American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_proposed_Jack_the_Ripper_suspects#Francis_ Tumblety).

As for knife crime, the idea that banning guns (they aren't all banned here, incidentally, so your other point is also inaccurate) causes a rise in knife crime is not quite as simple as it seems:


Of the 839 homicides in England and Wales in the 12 months ending Nov. 28 — the most recent period for which Home Office figures are available — 29% involved sharp instruments including knives, blades and swords. Firearms account for just 9% of murders in Britain. The murder rate in Britain is 15 per million people.

The U.S. murder rate is 55 per million, according to the FBI. Of those, 70% of murders were committed with firearms; just 14% involved knives or cutting instruments.

Finally, yes, I must admit, it is extremely embarrassing to be living in a country where the pretence of power lies in the hands of a tiny dynasty of dysfunctional freaks. For real progress and real power, we look as always to the land of the American Dream, the Kennedys, the Rockefellers, the Bushes and the Clintons...

[Diva]

You know... before reading the snarky responses I was reading the article and was appalled that someone with a mental issue could get a gun. Everyone is so ready to scream to the heavens when gun control is even mentioned... Bassmama, if one of your grandchildren were shot by a man who was being treated for something that had mood altering effects and was able to buy a gun "five days earlier", would you still be attacking Am like this? I know lots of gun collectors. Pos is one of them. At this point I don't feel taking the guns from people is the answer. Hell, it would NEVER happen out here. But we do have a heavily flawed system that allows dangerous people to pick up guns that SHOULD NEVER HAVE THEM (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/15/university.shooting/index.html). Instead of slamming each other for different beliefs we should stick to the issue at hand. There is a problem that needs to be dealt with. How we deal with it is what counts.

What do the pro guns VS anti guns people think would be the most reasonable and realistic approach to trying to stop the massacres?


:flaming:

[Bones]

What do the pro guns VS anti guns people think would be the most reasonable and realistic approach to trying to stop the massacres?


Thorough back ground checks.

[Diva]

Thorough back ground checks.

Here's where it gets tricky though. How do we label those who are ineligible to buy firearms without violating HIPAA (privacy laws) when it is a mental health issue? Anyone up on the laws regarding this?

[Bones]

I don't think there is a realistic way of keeping guns away from criminals. They are going to get them no matter what is done. I can walk two blocks north of my house and buy a gun legally at the gun shop. Or I can go two blocks south to a drug dealers house and buy a stolen gun. If I'm planning on killing someone, which gun do you think I'm going to buy?

[James]

Or the mother begging for food cause her old man is spending their little bit of money smoking crack.

That's not poverty, that's poor financial planning! :angel:

I'd consider true "poverty" to be the family that has two responsible parents (or a single parent) working hard, 60 hours a week, and at the end of the day they're only deeper in debt.

Regarding drug/alcohol problems: It pisses me off when people think that they can shrug off their responsibilities to their family and endulge in self destructive behavior just because other people with just as shitty lives are going to foot the bill when they apply for welfare. Yeah, that's right mr poor drunk parent, there are people who are worse off than you who just fucking DEAL with it and try to fix their situation. Obviously we can't refuse to help in those situations though, since it isn't the kid's fault that their mom/dad is a fuck up, but it still pisses me off.

[James]

Or I can go two blocks south to a drug dealers house and buy a stolen gun. If I'm planning on killing someone, which gun do you think I'm going to buy?

A funny quote from CSI last night:
"*sigh* no one kills anyone with registered guns anymore".

While it's true for many killings, there are two scenarios where I can see someone using a gun registered to them in a murder:
1: Crimes of passion. ie wife in bed with mr mailman.
2: Planned Murder-Suicides: The french guy up here used his legaly registered .45 rifle and handguns to shoot up that school in montreal or quebec or wherever it was. Who cares if it's registered to you when you're going to kill yourself anyways.

Gun registration is like border security, it's just there to make shooting/smuggling risky enough for "normal people" to not be tempted to do it.

[Amaurote]

You don't have to be Mr Picky to note that there is in fact a continuum between registered firearms and illegal weaponry. I'm sure the tiny fraction of people who are professional criminals never have a problem obtaining anything, but we should really be focusing on society as a whole, not a few minus one percentiles of career bandits.

On CSI: I nearly pissed myself last week when I was passing a scene on TV. CSI was playing, and a few of the detectives were shining blue lights down a wall, only this time there were lots of them. They should film that entire show in a blue lens one day, just to reiterate the point.

[Diva]

I don't think there is a realistic way of keeping guns away from criminals. They are going to get them no matter what is done. I can walk two blocks north of my house and buy a gun legally at the gun shop. Or I can go two blocks south to a drug dealers house and buy a stolen gun. If I'm planning on killing someone, which gun do you think I'm going to buy?

I totally agree. But as James and Am pointed out, this isn't about the criminal population really. It's about people who would normally slip under the radar, but with bad enough issues that they need to be addressed. If someone wants a gun bad enough... they WILL get it.


Regarding drug/alcohol problems: It pisses me off when people think that they can shrug off their responsibilities to their family and endulge in self destructive behavior just because other people with just as shitty lives are going to foot the bill when they apply for welfare. Yeah, that's right mr poor drunk parent, there are people who are worse off than you who just fucking DEAL with it and try to fix their situation. Obviously we can't refuse to help in those situations though, since it isn't the kid's fault that their mom/dad is a fuck up, but it still pisses me off.

I feel the exact same way. It's such a tough call. The kids are the ones that suffer either way. Take them away and where can you put them that will be any better? Foster care sucks balls out here.


While it's true for many killings, there are two scenarios where I can see someone using a gun registered to them in a murder:
1: Crimes of passion. ie wife in bed with mr mailman.
2: Planned Murder-Suicides: The french guy up here used his legaly registered .45 rifle and handguns to shoot up that school in montreal or quebec or wherever it was. Who cares if it's registered to you when you're going to kill yourself anyways.

Gun registration is like border security, it's just there to make shooting/smuggling risky enough for "normal people" to not be tempted to do it.

This is really the bottom line. These mass murders were done by people with registered firearms. Easily obtained ones.


You don't have to be Mr Picky to note that there is in fact a continuum between registered firearms and illegal weaponry. I'm sure the tiny fraction of people who are professional criminals never have a problem obtaining anything, but we should really be focusing on society as a whole, not a few minus one percentiles of career bandits.


Again.. my point is the same. At the very least getting a gun should be more difficult than buying a knife set. Regardless of what the person is buying it for, the bottom line is that it's a deadly weapon and created to kill.

Here's another story to throw into the mix:


Prosecutors have charged a 14-year-old classmate with premeditated murder with hate-crime and firearm-use enhancements.

Brandon David McInerney, who allegedly brought a handgun to E.O. Green Junior High School on Tuesday and shot King in the head, was charged in Superior Court as an adult.


Lawrence King, 15, was murdered because he was openly gay. A 14 yr old walked into a computer classroom, shot him in the head and back, then fled.

Where does a 14 yr old get a gun? Most likely... his home. His parents may have bought it for protection, or just had it. The bottom line is that it was NOT kept in a place where that boy could not get to it. How many other children could have died that day? Now a 15 yr old is being charged as an adult and his life is gone. Friends and family have lost a special person who was open about who he was. All I keep thinking about is how that kid got the gun. Anyone who want guns to stay legal had better put down the Second Amendment and start thinking of ways to keep them safe from those who shouldn't have them and finding ways to make sure the people who do are more responsible for them.

[Bassmama]

I came back to this thread to kind of apologise to Am for puffing & snorting at him for what he wrote, even tho in a way I feel (felt) that way . There's been a LOT of coverage on TV about the school killings & every time I hear about something like that, I feel like the people I see at the scene- it's downright painful to see the torture & insanity that's going on in this society.

BTW, Am- good answer- & I'm NOT being sarcastic now. I think your answer made me think about stuff as much as my answer to your post made you think about what I said. Hell, if nothing else, it got a whole lot of people re-involved in this thread.

If you go by 'mental health' standards, I'm probably the 1st person that they'd take the gunhs from- I've been on antidepressants for years, I have a quick temper, & I have to really work at keeping my temper under control sometimes. But I own guns (VERY plural). I have never nor will I ever hurt/murder anyone with a gun, though. Unless I or a family member is threatened with harm.

And Diva- if anyone hurt my granddaughters or any other family member with or without a gun, I WOULD go after them- WITH mine. As a matter of fact, there was a story in a newspaper recently where I used to live about a 26 year old man that repeatedly raped an 8 year old & a 6 year old & molested other kids. He got a whole 17 years in prison for that. Had that been my granddaughters, the fucker wouldn't live more than 12 hours after his release from prison. He'd have been lucky to make it until he was arrested.

That doesn't answer the problem about what needs to be done about these people that shoot up innocents. Taking guns away isn't going to stop the problem.

[Diva]

I came back to this thread to kind of apologise to Am for puffing & snorting at him for what he wrote, even tho in a way I feel (felt) that way . There's been a LOT of coverage on TV about the school killings & every time I hear about something like that, I feel like the people I see at the scene- it's downright painful to see the torture & insanity that's going on in this society.

BTW, Am- good answer- & I'm NOT being sarcastic now. I think your answer made me think about stuff as much as my answer to your post made you think about what I said. Hell, if nothing else, it got a whole lot of people re-involved in this thread.

If you go by 'mental health' standards, I'm probably the 1st person that they'd take the gunhs from- I've been on antidepressants for years, I have a quick temper, & I have to really work at keeping my temper under control sometimes. But I own guns (VERY plural). I have never nor will I ever hurt/murder anyone with a gun, though. Unless I or a family member is threatened with harm.

And Diva- if anyone hurt my granddaughters or any other family member with or without a gun, I WOULD go after them- WITH mine. As a matter of fact, there was a story in a newspaper recently where I used to live about a 26 year old man that repeatedly raped an 8 year old & a 6 year old & molested other kids. He got a whole 17 years in prison for that. Had that been my granddaughters, the fucker wouldn't live more than 12 hours after his release from prison. He'd have been lucky to make it until he was arrested.

That doesn't answer the problem about what needs to be done about these people that shoot up innocents. Taking guns away isn't going to stop the problem.

*hugs tight* Thank you, honey.

This is a perfect thread to discuss options for gun owners that benefit everyone. I am not saying to make them illegal. You KNOW that would never happen. What I do want to hear is anyone's ideas on how to cut down on the gun violence that is around right now. Not criminal, but people on the edge who have no business being near sharp objects, much less a gun.

Plus, owning a gun should mean more responsibility. It should be looked at as a privilege, not a right. Appreciate what you have or it will be taken from you. Because all Americans CAN have that right taken from them. Breaking the law, etc... So to have people be more responsible, what options should be in place? For one thing, anyone who thinks a shoe box will deter a child from finding a gun needs to watch a few videos of kids going into nooks and crannies while they're away.

Click on the link I posted above. Or click HERE (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/16/national/main3840120.shtml). On the left side it has some very sobering statistics about guns in America.

[James]

I think I should get to carry a gun, so if someone goes nuts I can have a sweet gun battle instead of getting slaughtered while I charge them with my knife that I carry. I suppose I could hide inside a room beside the door and slice their throat as they come through, then take their gun and give them a nice lead labotomy before heading out to find their friends. I wouldn't even have to worry about police coming in and mistaking me for one of the baddies since the cops never even go in until after they're sure the guys have killed themselves and the danger is over. Yeah, great job serving and protecting fuckers.

[dynamitt]

This is a perfect thread to discuss options for gun owners that benefit everyone. I am not saying to make them illegal. You KNOW that would never happen.

Why not? This is the only way I can see shootings like these getting less likely to happen. As longs as it is legal to buy guns it is to easy for people who should not have one to get a gun.

[Isotrip]

Why not? This is the only way I can see shootings like these getting less likely to happen. As longs as it is legal to buy guns it is to easy for people who should not have one to get a gun.

I normally stay away from discussions like this in general but Oulawing guns isn't the answer for the plain simple fact that it will not stop the people that really are planning to do serious shit from doing it. Illicit drugs are a really good example of this. They are Illegal but all too readily availible for anyone that really wants to get their hands on them.

Lets look at it in another context for a moment. How many people on here realize that you can manufacture explosives with instructions that you D/L off of the internet? Yep that's right boyz and gurlz you too can make your very own Acme Bomb! So, say said FROOT Salad lover really wants to cause mayhem, and they can't get a gun...? What is to say they won't strap themselves up like Jeff Dunham's "Dead Terrorist" and walk in and set him/herself off like a roman candle while taking everyone else with him/her?

The point I am trying to make is, again making guns illegal will not cause the problem. As the GUNS are not the problem. It is the Froot Loop's that are the problem. And if they REALLY want to cause pain, death and destruction. They will always find a way...

:2cents:

[Amaurote]

Given that the USA is fundamentally a nation whose guiding principle is about finding practical solutions to problems using creative know-how, the Hindu fatalism of many Americans about the "impossibility" of resolving gun violence is a bizarre anomaly. Look around you. The world is full of countries - not comic-opera utopias, but flesh-and-blood nation-states like your own - which have largely resolved that problem using precisely what your right-wing motormouth media likes to deride as heavy-handed, oppressive statist laws: merit bads.

Here's the problem, though: those heavy-handed oppressive statist laws work. The dearly-loved disordered lunatics in those countries rarely have access to rapid-firing weaponry, and perps that carry guns get put away forever, even if they're carrying imitation firearms - a concept I've noticed most Americans tellingly find amusing: "Why the hell would any criminal want to carry an imitation firearm?"

[JakeD]

It's kinda funny - I'm starting to give a fuck less and less about being pro-gun, and it's mostly because of the pro-gun crowd.

The most amusing part to me is when people make a comment about how they want their guns because they'd need it in case they ever needed to take up arms against the government.

Meanwhile look at what our country's gone through under Bush: thousands of our own men and women dead in a misguided war effort subsequently resulting in the loss of our previous stronghold in Afghanistan, innumerable amounts of corporate corruption, massive mishandling of disaster efforts, blatant erosion of civil liberties, an economy that's making a nose-dive for a turd-filled shitter, and the admission that our government does detain and torture potentially innocent people without allowing them any sort of legal counsel or oversight, and a laundry list of other things - all of this done right in our goddamned faces with absolutely no whitewashing.

Apparently the only time they'll pick up a gun is when someone comes to take it from them or they need to shoot something feathered or furry, otherwise it's all a bunch of bluster. The day that I see armed militias of citizens is the day that I’ll eat my hat. Otherwise, have fun polishing your guns while watching Lost.

Then you have the “it’s our right, we have the freedom to do this” talking point. Honestly, we don’t have freedom to do shit. Sure, guns are ingrained in our culture, and sure, gun owners might talk a big talk when it comes to being able to own them, but if our government really wanted to crack down on guns, they could do so and at least half of the gun owners and vendors wouldn’t make a peep.

Like Diva said, it’s a privilege, not a right. We don’t have this human right for Colt or Smith and Wesson to forge these weapons out of metal and sell them to us. I sure as hell don't know anyone who makes their own guns, short of maybe a zip gun that will blow their hand off when they try to fire it. Weaponry has become so advanced and we've gotten so far removed from the weapon-making process that essentially, we’ve got the right to a rock and a sharp fucking stick when it all comes down to it, and that’s about it.

[Bassmama]

Again, I have the urge to rant @Am, but again, I realize where he's living/coming from.

I'm with Iso 150%. I HAVE a NYS concealed weapon permit. I was raised in a house where guns were within reach, loaded & ready if the need arose- which, luckily, it didn't. I was also raised that children WERE NOT TO TOUCH THEM! I was also a super curious kid that did search through things when noone else was home, but I was taught that guns= DANGER & the most I EVER did was to open the drawer & look at them.

We are living in different & MUCH more dangerous times. While there were dangers back then, they weren't like today. The most you had to worry about when your kids went to school was bullies & the kids going to the candy store next to the school & spending all their allowance, or (in high school) sitting in the parking lot at noon & making out. I grew up in a farming community & kids were taught that guns = killing, which was forever. They weren't subjected to everyday death & destruction, video games where you could shoot other humans & that targeted law enforcement & was FUN (WHEE! Let's kill ANOTHER ONE!!) Kids didn't get the idea that they needed to shoot up a school to get famous- they were taught that the punishment for their irresponsibility would be worse than the deed they did & it was NOT heroic & a status symbol to rack up more stays in more prisons than anyone else. Our heros were Roy ROgers & the "good guys", NOT 50 Cent, Flayva Flav (or however you spell it) , or any of the 'hoods' , and driveby shootings, stabbings, etc. were NOT everyday events that were accepted with a "ho-hum" attitude. You could walk from one end of town to the other at 11PM without being too concerned for your safety as long as you kept your eyes open. I know- I did it when I was in my early 20s in downtown Albany, NY- in a setion that was considered a 'bad' section back then- I was 120 lb & had a hawt body- you saw my ID pic- & wasn't bothered. Now the same section is considered safe, but you don't walk through the park alone at night like I did, for fear that you'll get attacked. I had incidents, but they were during the daytime hours & usually with people I shouldn't have been hanging out with in the first place. Now it doesn't matter- you can get killed just sitting on your front porch.

Want to get rid of the killing, etc.? Why not start by banning the violent games out there? (How many of you have them & play them??) Of course, you'll always be able to get them through black market. You could always make drugs illegal. Oh, yeah- I forgot- they already are, even tho it doesn't do a damned bit of good. How about making alcohol illegal? Oh, we can't do THAT! Pot's illegal (& I have YET to see ANYONE high on reefer that gets violent, & have only seen or heard about 5 people in my whole life that HAS NOT gotten violent/emotional/unreasonable when they get drunk)

Oh, I know- let's take away ALL means of defending LAW abiding citizens so the illegal gun owners can break in & kill them, then we can arrest them, tell them how naughty they've been, house, feed, & take care of all their physical ailaments, then let them go back out to the 'hood' to do it again. Of course, while we're doing it, we can raise the costs of everything that WE (facetious) hold stock in so WE can make MUCHO $$$ while THEY freeze to death in their homelessness or use portable heaters & die of carbon monoxide poisoning trying to keep their kids warm, or kill each other off because they feel hopeless & miserable as it is & the only options THEY have for making $$ IS being in a gang & selling drugs & having their illegal guns & playing their violent games that teach them how to kill off anyone they don't like the looks of before they're kill because someone didn't like THEIR looks.

And the GW Bushes of the world keep raking in the $$ & laughing at all of us struggling to keep ourselves warm & our kids fed & out of gangs.

Fuck NO don't take my LEGAL guns away- I'll gladly give them up if you can find me a guaranteed SAFE place to live.

[Amaurote]

Admit it, now, how many of the folks from America find the images conveyed by the following both bizarre and funny?


Replica guns and government proposals



The last few years have seen an increase in the criminal use of imitation and replica guns in crime. Research strongly indicates that the gun manufacturers are behind the growing replica market. Many of these guns are exact replicas made under licences issued by major gun manufacturers.



An imitation firearm is defined as anything which has the appearance of being a firearm whether or not it is capable of discharging a shot, bullet or other missile.



Imitations are freely available without licence and have proved attractive to those who may not have the resources, or may not want to possess real guns. Such replicas are as frightening to confront as real guns, and their criminal and irresponsible use presents particular problems for the police.



The number of recorded crimes involving imitation weapons has tripled from 566 in 1998-9 to 1,815 in 2002-3 [6]. Nonetheless, the government has ruled out a wholesale ban on imitation firearms, claiming it is too difficult to find a legal definition for replicas.



The Anti-Social Behaviour Act 2003 made it illegal to possess an imitation firearm in public and the Act recognises that “for a number of years there has been a steady rise in the misuse of air weapons and imitation firearms” [7]. Nonetheless, the escalation of replica gun-related crime demonstrates that short of a total ban on the manufacture, sale and possession of replica weapons the problem cannot be adequately addressed.

A recent Home Office Consultation Paper, published in May this year clearly states the Government’s position on replica guns a follows: "It has proved difficult to find a workable legal definition of an imitation firearm and we do not believe that the level of effort required by agencies to administer additional restrictions is offset by public safety gains." [8].

Commenting on this Home Office minister Caroline Flint said: "I can't envisage a wholesale ban on imitation and replica firearms".

A detective from Operation Trident, Scotland Yard's special taskforce which tackles gun crime within the black community said: "These guns can be bought perfectly legally but they can be converted using tools you can buy at a DIY shop. We have been trying for years to get them banned." A Scotland Yard spokesperson added to this that 70% of firearms offences investigated by Operation Trident involved replica guns which had been converted to fire live ammunition.

UK Green Party Feed (http://www.greenparty.org.uk/files/reports/2004/Gun%20control.htm)

That's a big rise. As usual, a big part of the firearm offence stats are accounted for by air-guns and replica weapons. When was the last time you heard of an American perp buying a fake gun on the black market? He'd be laughed right out of the criminal fraternity.

Be as fatalistic as you like. There is nothing inevitable about gun crime, and nothing impossible about measures to radically reduce it.

[Bassmama]

Am- you're comparing apples to oranges- America is not the UK, & that blerb is talking about the UK, NOT the USA.

[Bones]

How about making alcohol illegal? Oh, we can't do THAT! Pot's illegal (& I have YET to see ANYONE high on reefer that gets violent, & have only seen or heard about 5 people in my whole life that HAS NOT gotten violent/emotional/unreasonable when they get drunk)

I'm really thankful that I don't get crazy when I drink. I don't understand people that do.

[Amaurote]

Am- you're comparing apples to oranges- America is not the UK, & that blerb is talking about the UK, NOT the USA.

You're missing the point, Bass - which is that your firearm-ban fatalism is undermined by operative ban solutions in other nation-states. And as we've noted before, apples and oranges are both types of fruit, and as such, eminently capable of being compared.

[Diva]

I find it curious that those who are pro gun mist over any sort of suggestion for gun control laws. I've asked a very fair question and all I see is 'you're not taking my gun away'. Did I SAY I was? And remember... this IS a thread on the internet, so no laws are made based on these discussions.

Like Am said, there are many civilized countries that managed to get over the propaganda and completely ban guns... so saying it's going to open the floodgates to mass mayhem is kinda silly. The murder rates are lower... says it all, right?

Anyway, I am not totally for banning guns. Not sure why. I don't own one so it's no skin off my nose either way. But I DO think the laws need to be stricter. Bass, you said you'd be one of the first people to have your gun taken away... is that why you don't want to offer up any solutions to stopping the gun flow into the hands of unstable individuals?

Iso, I agree. Any person in ANY country can make a bomb easily. We have the Oklahoma Bombing as a prime (and grim) example. I still don't think it means we should throw our hands up and say we can't do anything about bombs so lets not do anything about guns. Not that I think it's what you're saying... but I hear a lot of other options brought up when simply talking about ways to keep guns away from people who shouldn't own them... and kids.

Bass, it's good to see your household taught about gun safety. I'm sure you don't need me to start posting stories about the MANY children whose households DIDN'T do that and had to pay the ultimate price. A child dead. Another child who will forever be scared with the memory of killing their sibling/friend. Maybe it's where you live. In the country it seems like guns are more popular because of hunting, etc... Out here someone buys a gun and the only places they can shoot it are on firing ranges. Most of the time, they sit in a person's home...

One more thing... Video games are worse than guns? You're kidding, right? That's right up there with rock n roll being the devil. Are you seriously suggesting that video games are more dangerous than guns? Please show me statistics on this one.

One last thing... My question isn't about stopping crime. Like any sort of violent person, give them enough time and they WILL find a way. This is just a step to making those who mean harm less lethal. Right now picking up a gun and killing multiple people is as easy as 1-2-3-4-5 days away. Six if they don't count holidays...

[Bassmama]

And you're missing the point- your own posted blerb PROVES my point: when people want a firearm they will get it one way or another- even if it means taking the displayed antiques out of their frames & figuring out how to get them working again.

Diva- I can't say how to regulate them- I haven't got a clue beyond requiring better parental control, & considering what I see on a daily basis, there ain't no such thang out there. I also said ban violent games as a suggestion, but that won't happen either. I know you didn't suggest taking firearms away, but Am's suggestions sure heavily lean that way.

Sorry, but I don't see any hope for banning them/taking them away/controlling them unless society changes drastically, the threat from fanatics no longer exists, illegals are permanently stopped from entering this country (I'm NOT talking about the poor mexican or other families- I AM talking about the REAL 'terrorist' faction members), & a host of other societal ills are cured. I just don't see it happening, ESPECIALLY something as simple as taking away all the firearms from the legal owners- becasue the law enforcement members don't know who possess the illegal ones.

Oh- and I didn't say that video games are more dangerous than guns, but it has been stated that as a direct result of video games, accuracy & complacency about causing death to others is a very BIG side effect- because they don't also show the pain & agony caused by those deaths & the blood isn't real, after all-... or so the suggestions (http://www.slate.com/id/2164065) hint. Of course, the video game sites argue otherwise.

[Amaurote]

And you're missing the point- your own posted blerb PROVES my point: when people want a firearm they will get it one way or another- even if it means taking the displayed antiques out of their frames & figuring out how to get them working again.

Erm...no, read a little more closely. It proves that criminals seeking to obtain illegal firearms in a fiercely repressed black market have to resort to buying toy guns that can't harm anyone and adapting them so they look more menacing. It directly refutes your point.

As for the so-called restriction of liberty, my liberty to not feel threatened by every Tom, Dick and Harriet carrying firearms is one of the few things I like about living in this country.

[Isotrip]

See and this is exactly why I normally don't get in on these discussions. But I will say one last thing before I never look at this thread again...

Am you seriously need to take off the Anti-USA blinders you have on. There isn't a single fucking nation in the world that doesn't have some type of gun control issue.

*Closing door*

[Bassmama]

Iso- I think if the US gets rid of it's guns, Am has a plan on coming over here & recapturing us for the Queen Mother.......

[Amaurote]

See and this is exactly why I normally don't get in on these discussions. But I will say one last thing before I never look at this thread again...

Am you seriously need to take off the Anti-USA blinders you have on. There isn't a single fucking nation in the world that doesn't have some type of gun control issue.

*Closing door*

You don't know me at all, frankly, so I'd be a little wary about assuming (wildly inaccurately, as it happens, since I'm a huge admirer and consumer of American cultural product, high, middle and low, and I'm a big fan of American history - Eugene Debs in particular at the moment) that I'm anti-American: it's convenient for you to dismiss the point that way, but you'll note that the only person who has indulged briefly in nation-bashing here is in fact American (not knocking Bass for that, either, her targets are in fact ones I dislike equally). I'm proudly inciviste: I think all nation-states suck equally, and my point here is strictly related to gun laws - I have no time for the UK political system as it stands at all, and for the most part the Anglo-American model is just that, a continuum of maladjustment here, there and in most of the English-speaking world.

But as for your last point, it's clearly a complete nonsequitur: the existence of some illegal firearm activity in every nation-state with (in American terms) "oppressive" gun legislation in no way allows you to conclude that "oppressive" gun laws do not work. If you really want to set the bar that high, the corollary would be that the absence of "oppressive" gun laws is still much, much worse.

[JakeD]

Oh- and I didn't say that video games are more dangerous than guns, but it has been stated that as a direct result of video games, accuracy & complacency about causing death to others is a very BIG side effect- because they don't also show the pain & agony caused by those deaths & the blood isn't real, after all-... or so the suggestions (http://www.slate.com/id/2164065) hint. Of course, the video game sites argue otherwise.

What about violent movies, music, and books? Violence is endemic to our culture, and I don't understand how videogames make any difference here. Violence is still titillating, it still evokes emotional responses, and our culture is built on aggressiveness. Drawing half-assed parallels like the author of that article did doesn't really answer anything. Everyone (http://kotaku.com/357294/jt-on-the-niu-shooting-+-the-video) always wants to blame something for violence - whether it's a rock band, a movie, or a videogame. Interactivity is a moot point.

[Amaurote]

Iso- I think if the US gets rid of it's guns, Am has a plan on coming over here & recapturing us for the Queen Mother.......

I think that would technically make the US a necrocracy, which in terms of the number of gun fatalities might be pretty apt...

[JakeD]

I think that would technically make the US a necrocracy, which in terms of the number of gun fatalities might be pretty apt...

For some reason, Zombie Reagan comes to mind.

[Bassmama]

For some reason, Zombie Reagan comes to mind.
You got THAT right!

[Bones]

For some reason, Zombie Reagan comes to mind.

I can only dream that such a thing would happen. But then James would show up and shoot him in the head.

[trekbugging]

i am a legal multiple gun owner and possibly a illegal as i have a old gun my father gave me that isn't registered--but it is "only" a .22 caliber revolver and such--yadda yadda--- i think to control guns you need more people with guns--- wait before you totally bash me-- in other countries that have guns owned by all--the criminal thinks twice before commiting a crine as they have a high likely hood of getting shot also--but if all owned guns then their would be more gun crimes---:(
so the answer is more instruction in use of guns--but unless you have a mandatory gun instruction class in high school don't see that happening either

making it harder to get a gun-- yes --but how far do you go with that and who decides--"oh look this guy has been late on his house payment 3 times in the past 5 years--oh we can't give him a gun"-- as of right now they are supposed to check the background--but without violating hippa laws can't check if the person is on anti-depresants or full blown bad drugs--

i shoot video at a hospital for CMN and we can't get info on a patient untill they or their parents give approval to be able to look into their file--so if i am shooting them (video) and it's hard to get info --how can a gun seller be expected to get that type of info

but have heard some gun laws are trying-- have heard in NY once you die if your gun isn't owned by another also then the police will come to get it-- was told this by uncle in upstate NY as he is trying to get his daughter to be second owner of his guns in case he dies so the guns aren't taken by police-- this is second person so don't know if positive-Bass???

[Mr. Bojangles]

Here's a thought folks. I'm a gun owner. I in fact have several weapons that I could lay my hands on in under a minute. My problem is not that it's easy to GET a gun, but that assault weapons are available to the general public. Buy assault weapons, I'm referring to sub-machine guns, semi-automatic rifles, and tactical shotguns.

Let's not forget handguns either. These things are designed for one thing, killing people. Not home protection, not varmint hunting, but killing people. I don't think that any reasonable person that wants a gun for scaring the baddies out of the house needs anything more than a pump shotgun anyway. The sound of a round getting chambered in the dark is often enough to make a person shit down their leg. A pistol does not have the same psychological effect.

Most children that find a parents gun find a handgun that daddy stuffed in the sock drawer, or that mommy had hidden in a nightstand. Loaded, of course. What little kid isn't gonna think that thats pretty cool? This is how horrible, tragic accidents happen. My opinion, and I could be terribly wrong, is that handguns should only be available to law-enforcement personell, and that assault weapons should not be available to ANYBODY. This way, everybody gets to keep the shotgun over the mantle and the rednecks get to go on shooting the critters in the woods. It won't put a stop to gun crime, but it would at least force the criminals to learn to shoot straight.

[Diva]

Trek, that's why I don't see how they're going to get past the HIPAA to really see what issues the people have at hand. Then again, the DMV has a way to check certain things or someone has to tell them (seizures, etc...) .

* Diva stares in awe at Bo's post

Thank you. Thank you for pointing out some SERIOUS facts people just seem to keep glossing over. I live in a very old apartment building. It's suffice to say if one of my neighbors has a gun and happens to shoot off a round, either by accident or at someone, it's going right through the walls. Not just one, either. We've seen it on the news, I've seen them wheeled into the OR. People who were in their homes and got shot by a stray bullet. I'm not just talking about the average "couldn't hit the side of a barn if they tried" gangbanger either. Men who were target practicing. Cleaning out their gun. Shit happens. But when that 'shit' involves my health or the health of someone I love you're damn sure I'm going to speak up.

To the gun owners: Is there a mandatory class to take before hand... or do you just buy it and you're on your own? What are the laws in your state for buying a gun VS rifle, etc...?

[Bassmama]

Trek- I believe you're right about the guns being siezed by law enforcement upon the death of the owner- pistols only, though. I also believe that a family member can have them transferred into their ownership & they will be returned to the newly licensed person's possession.

As far as other gun laws for NY, you can check them out here. (http://www.nysrpa.org/) I know when I went for my pistol license, a course was not required & I was recommended by a county sheriff who was a personal friend of mine- as a matter of fact, helped talk me into getting it- & it took over 6 months for me to get back then. I know the laws have changed since then, but not sure how.

Oh, and BTW- if I'm awakend at night by someone coming in that shouldn't be, I don't think it'll be as easy to take a shotgun out from under my pillow as it would be taking a pistol out. While I don't sleep with one now, I have in the past & probably will in the future.

[Poseidon]

Conceal and carry license requires a class in MO. To obtain ANY firearm requires filling out a couple papers and a background check. The problem, of course, is the mental angle. You either start registering people with mental disabilities/problems, take away rights/privileges from everyone, or accept that shit will happen.

[dynamitt]

EDIT : because my point was basically what Bo said and he said it so much much better

[trekbugging]

to get a concel carry permit--you are fingerprinted, through background check andc class---
to buy pistol 2 week waiting period--but you can normally get a few permits to buy so if you buy one in 3 months could show the permit to buy and get it then
for rifles/shotguns--fill out form wait for check and walk out of store with it

[Bones]

In Texas you don't need a permit to own a gun but you need one to have a concealed weapons permit and you have to take classes to get one. And there is always a background check to buy a gun for any reason.

[James]

The swiss have it right:
Almost every household has either a military issue assault rifle (for currently serving members), or a bolt action rifle (for reservists and former members). Their gun crime rate is so small that statistics on it "aren't even kept". To have a gun, you have to either serve or have served in the military. Those in the military have far more respect for the responsibility that owning a firearm brings. It's not their "right" to own a gun, it's their duty to protect their country and be responsible with the weapon they are given to do it with.
I will concede that they have the highest number of suicides by gun, but frankly when someone wants to kill themselves they turn to the easiest way to do it, even if there isnt a gun around there's always jumping off something high, bathing with a toaster, or sleeping with Paris Hilton.

As many before me have said, the problem with gun violence in America isn't that there are guns, the problem is improper medication and care for the mentally ill (teens especially), and the Media glorifying the killers and allowing others to see that they too can be famous, all they need to do is shoot up their school and EVERYONE will listen to their problems, who wronged them and make their lives mean something to everyone else.

The news media loves to blame video games and gun nuts for the rampages, but they're the ones I blame. Them and those crafty Commies. ;)

[Amaurote]

The swiss have it right:
Almost every household has either a military issue assault rifle (for currently serving members), or a bolt action rifle (for reservists and former members). Their gun crime rate is so small that statistics on it "aren't even kept". To have a gun, you have to either serve or have served in the military. Those in the military have far more respect for the responsibility that owning a firearm brings. It's not their "right" to own a gun, it's their duty to protect their country and be responsible with the weapon they are given to do it with.
I will concede that they have the highest number of suicides by gun, but frankly when someone wants to kill themselves they turn to the easiest way to do it, even if there isnt a gun around there's always jumping off something high, bathing with a toaster, or sleeping with Paris Hilton.

As many before me have said, the problem with gun violence in America isn't that there are guns, the problem is improper medication and care for the mentally ill (teens especially), and the Media glorifying the killers and allowing others to see that they too can be famous, all they need to do is shoot up their school and EVERYONE will listen to their problems, who wronged them and make their lives mean something to everyone else.

The news media loves to blame video games and gun nuts for the rampages, but they're the ones I blame. Them and those crafty Commies. ;)

There's a very simple problem with using Switzerland as an example: it's basically a giant tax haven with a snow chalet on top and no real social problems (because hey, everyone is rich). A more freakish example you could not find - and by all accounts their gun suicide rate is second only to that in the US; guns almost certainly amplify the suicide rate: you'd think twice about hanging yourself or swallowing poison, but the apparently rapid finality of a pistol is a more attractive and convenient exit route.

[Mr. Bojangles]

Oh, and BTW- if I'm awakend at night by someone coming in that shouldn't be, I don't think it'll be as easy to take a shotgun out from under my pillow as it would be taking a pistol out. While I don't sleep with one now, I have in the past & probably will in the future.


Why the HELL would you keep a gun under you pillow!? As a responsible gun owner, the very idea makes me shudder. As far as not being able to get to a shotgun quickly, lean the fucker up in the corner of your bedroom with a couple of shells in the nightstand. Trust me, the havoc you'll wreak with the streetsweeper is FAR more satisfying that the puttering about with a 9mm or a .45. Not to mention the size of the exit wound.

[James]

I think the last place someone should have a gun is in bed with them. If you can't hear someone breaking into your house, you either need stronger doors and windows, or an alarm system. If the bad guy is so close that you don't have time to get out of bed, they could have killed you already if that was their goal.

One thing you could do if you're the only one in the house is to simply lock down your bedroom door, so that if someone does get into your house, there's a big door between you and them that gives you time to get your gun off the gun rack while they try to smash it in.

[trekbugging]

even if someone got into my house my first round in 9mm is rat shot as there is a hallway to my room if they are in it i will hit them--but the next round is hollow point to blow the fucker away--and if they don't have a gun i will make sure they have somekind of weapon in their hand when cops come

[Reliquiae]

Woe to the fucker that ever decides to take me on... :devil:

[Unforgiven]

If someone attacks me in my house, I guess I'll just throw computer parts and textbooks at them. If I have time, I could engage them in a sword duel, but other than that, textbooks it is.

[JakeD]

If someone attacks me in my house, I guess I'll just throw computer parts and textbooks at them. If I have time, I could engage them in a sword duel, but other than that, textbooks it is.

Pussy. I've mastered the art of stabbing their brains out with my prehensile dick.

[Isotrip]

even if someone got into my house my first round in 9mm is rat shot as there is a hallway to my room if they are in it i will hit them--but the next round is hollow point to blow the fucker away--and if they don't have a gun i will make sure they have somekind of weapon in their hand when cops come


In Florida, Residents have the right to shoot someone if they feel that their life is threatened. There are billboards all along I-75 and I-95 as you enter the state warning of this:

"Attention Florida Residents have the right to SHOOT you if they feel their life is threatened."

We had some people try to rob an elderly couple on the north Cape. The old man took the gun from one of the would be robbers and shot him dead in his driveway. No charges were filed and he never even when in for questioning. Of course the woman that was with the would be robbers was the elderly couple's maid and she was scared shitless enough after the shooting to admit that they were attempting to rob the old man which of course proved that the old man was telling the truth. They hauled her and the other male robber off to jail.

[trekbugging]

Pussy. I've mastered the art of stabbing their brains out with my prehensile dick.
ican see jake and diva on the couch , eating popcorn, naked watching a movie-- diva looks over and jakes dick is handing her a piece of popcorn

[Amaurote]

Yet another of these oh-so-irregular occurrences (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,334212,00.html)

[Amaurote]

Whether it's 39% or 50% of Americans, it's still an awful lot of people. I started wondering just who they were, what they looked like, and how they lived. Such was the genesis of Armed America: Portraits of American Gun Owners in Their Homes. The idea was to photograph a hundred gun owners, in their homes, and do a gallery show. I figured this would take about two years. But very soon after I started, it became evident that my ambitions were too low. My mailbox flooded with letters from people I didn't know wanting to participate -- I realized that I could probably photograph a hundred people in two months, but it wasn't a number of people that was important, it was their stories -- a cowboy in Texas, a survivalist in Montana, a deer hunter in Pennsylvania, a sheriff in Georgia, a soldier in Idaho.... What I really needed, I realized, was to get moving, to drive across the country and find America somewhere between here and there.

http://www.armedamerica.org/aa2/7-400.jpg

Armed America (http://www.armedamerica.org/)

I'm buying this first chance I get.

[JakeD]

Ashley: There are few things that beat a good day at the gun range, but the biggest reason I own firearms is because it’s my right as a citizen of the United States of America and I refuse to take my rights for granted. Anyone that reads any history at all knows how dangerous that can be.

So I assume Ashley's been the one gun owner who was leading all those armed protests against the Patriot Act, et al?

What a load of shit.

[Unforgiven]

It's my right to marry anyone I want, so I get married once a year.

[Bones]

It's my right to have affairs with Unfys wives.

[Reliquiae]

But would Unfy's wives want to have an affair with you after they've already had the awesomeness known as "UNFY"?

[Unforgiven]

But would Unfy's wives want to have an affair with you after they've already had the awesomeness known as "UNFY"?

If history is any indicator... yes, they would. :\

[Bassmama]

Oops- I lost track of this thread after my last post.

If I want to sleep w/a gun under my pillow, I'll do it. Literally, tho- it was under the other pillow or on the night stand. If I wake up & someone's standing over me, I want to give them a BIIIG surprise, unless they've been invited- then no buns would be around & they could give ME the "big surprise".


Wait- someone would marry Unfy? Without getting paid?

[Bones]

But would Unfy's wives want to have an affair with you after they've already had the awesomeness known as "UNFY"?

Unfy is like Bones Light.

[Amaurote]

http://www.armedamerica.org/aa2/7-400.jpg

Armed America (http://www.armedamerica.org/)

I'm buying this first chance I get.

This has real cumulative effect as a project; although there are few outstanding photographs (my own favourite is one of a young woman standing by a snooker table and lackadaisically wielding a handgun, with the text, "I'm just one more little girl in the world"), the overall tendency is quite striking, to the point where you can't help noticing embarrassing details like the fact that the tackiness of peoples' houses appears to be in exact proportion to the size of their firearms, or that...well, let's just say Kyle Cassidy has a gift for photographing housecats that surpasses even his ability to choose thought-provoking projects. A word on the accompanying text, which consists of short interviews with the subjects and a detailed inventory of the pictured guns: for the most part there's little new here, mostly World War X moans about the "God-given" Second Amendment and defending liberty from everything except the people who are actually taking those liberties away - but there are one or two interesting observations from people who cite Hurricane Katrina and the weakness of government as their rationale for carrying lethal weapons. And, to do them justice, one very interesting philosophical defence from Dan in Oregon that, "People who want to do away with guns, I think, are people who are insecure with making their own decisions." You may well disagree, but this collection provides the reader with a valuable insight into the suburban desire to feel safe, and just how much safer the anti-gun movement is going to have to make them feel before they will be willing to down lethality and cut the homicide/suicide rate.

Also, judging by how people like to pose with their guns, you can't help thinking gun ownership could be cut by making them all look like giant pink waterpistols with the words, "I WANT MY MOMMY" or "I'M JUST A BIG GAY DIPLODOCUS" emblazoned on the side.