Ashley X

[Diva]

Her name is Ashley X, and she is the little girl who will never grow up.Ashley was a faceless case study, cited in a paper by two doctors at Seattle Children’s Hospital as they outlined a treatment so radical that it brought with it allegations of “eugenics”, of creating a 21st-century Frankenstein’s monster, of maiming a child for the sake of convenience.


NI_MPU('middle');
The reason for the controversy is this: three years ago, when Ashley began to display early signs of puberty, her parents instructed doctors to remove her uterus, appendix and still-forming breasts, then treat her with high doses of oestrogen to stunt her growth. In other words, Ashley was sterilised and frozen in time, for ever to remain a child. She was only 6.


Afflicted with a severe brain impairment known as static encephalopathy, she cannot walk, talk, keep her head up in bed or even swallow food. Her parents argued that “keeping her small” was the best way to improve the quality of her life, not to make life more convenient for them.



My first reaction was outrage. It usually is. :p But I 'kind of' see the parents' point of view. It doesn't mean I agree with it though. What are your thoughts on this?

[Bones]

MY first reaction was outrage. That was purely emotional . I really have to think hard on this one before I can give an honest opinion.

[trekbugging]

Afflicted with a severe brain impairment known as static encephalopathy, she cannot walk, talk, keep her head up in bed or even swallow food.

OK in my mind that is a vegtable-- can she blink her eyes or move her hands or communicate in any way?--if not!!
what kind of live does she have--but to sterlize her -- jsut for the convenience of the parents --would need to know more on this

[entipy]

I read the entire article, and I didn't experience a single flash of outrage. These parents are responsible for their child's care for the rest of her life. From what I read, every decision they made was in her best interest AND theirs, and I don't see a thing wrong with that. If I were able and in their situation, I probably would've done the same thing.

[Bones]

I've read through it a couple times. And I can't help but think it's the parents mutilating their child for their own convenience. I can't see it as giving her a better quality of life. She never had a quality of life. The poor kid is a vegetable. And she has had her body invaded in a manner I can not condone. It was just wrong. I can feel nothing but sorrow for her.

[Amaurote]

I think the entire situation is outrageous. What they're doing would be a scandal in any decent world, but since this isn't a decent world, an outrageous response to an outrageous set of circumstances is almost certainly the best solution.

[entipy]

It seems to me that if these folks were out only for their own convenience, they would've just pawned the child off onto someone else, or they would've gotten rid of her another way. I think their actions were radical, yes, but I don't see it as much different than having your child undergo surgery to correct some sort of deformity. Cleft pallet, for instance.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't understand why prolonging the lives of people who are incapable of experiencing said lives in ANY manner is a "humane" way to treat them. Euthanasia would have, perhaps, been the best choice in this situation. Life purely for life's sake is not always best.

[dynamitt]

here (http://ashleytreatment.spaces.live.com/blog/) is a link to her parents blog. After reading that and also the comments from other parents which have children in similar mental state but with adults bodies - I think Ashley's parents actually did what is best for her not just what is most convinent for them.

[Bones]

I think the entire situation is outrageous. What they're doing would be a scandal in any decent world, but since this isn't a decent world, an outrageous response to an outrageous set of circumstances is almost certainly the best solution.
I have to honestly say that your response confuses me. I 'm not sure what your opinion is.
I know this much. If this was a child of mine, I would let her be as she was created. I would not try to change a thing about her. I think that is the thing that offended me the most about this. She was taken from what she was and made into something else. It just doesn't seem to be right to me. I find it to be an offense to humanity. In a decent world this would not happen. But we don't live in a decent world.

[JakeD]

Terri Schiavo.

EDIT - 9:44 pm.

Actually, I can't say Terri Schiavo, because at least she had a chance to enjoy life before falling into her condition, and wasn't born with it. Additionally, her parents didn't follow a doctor's advice to stunt her fucking growth. I can understand being a parent to a developmentally disabled child and letting them do their own thing and progress through life as normally as possible, but willfully making the child even more developmentally disabled?

That's no better than the trend of people breeding defects into animals just so that they can have a tiny, tiny puppy or a dog with fucking purple fur.

That coupled with the "pillow angel" shit just disturbs the living crap out of me.

[Bones]

disturbs the living crap out of me.I believe those are the words I was looking for. I'll also add BEAT THE LIVING CRAP OUT OF HER PARENTS to the mix.
I have had this stuck in my head every since I first read it. And the term EUGENICS keeps creeping into my head. The Nazis used it and tried to wrap themselves in a cloak of morality. It washes about as well now as it did then. There is no excuse for this. It offends me on so many levels I can't describe how offended I am. I keep reading this article and just get madder every time I read it. To say it disturbs me is an understatement.

Edit:

I may have to explain how I feel about this.
There's this kid named Earl Lee Gausline. He was born Autistic. I've known him since the day he was born. The doctors wanted to sterilize him. They thought it would be best for him. BULLSHIT!! They just didn't want him to be able to grow up. They were to damned lazy to even try to help him. They said he would never walk or be able to comprehend. He proved them wrong. He can't walk far. But he can walk. And the hug he gives me every time I see him shows comprehension to me. I get so pissed off when people say people like him are disabled or developmentally challenged. I think some of the people with their opinions are the ones that are. They don't look at them as people . And that is what is fucked up. They are just as much a person as I am. And I see cutting into them to change them as the same as dissecting a frog in a science experiment. It serves no purpose.

[entipy]

I just don't understand that outrage against this. Why are you outraged? Do you think her enjoyment of life was *diminished* by any of these actions, or is the outrage simply because they altered their daughter physically?

If you break it all down, here is what the girl's parents have done:

1) Made it so she never has to worry about pain which she wouldn't understand - menstrual cramps, discomfort due to (probably large) adult-size breasts which she will never have a need for
2) Made it so she can more easily be treated like the 3-month-old whose mentality she possesses - i.e. at her size, you're still able to hold her and cuddle her in your lap. Were she an adult, she wouldn't get the physical attention she required because it would be physically impossible.

In my mind, those two reasons are enough to show that what they've done is made her life easier. I have large-ish breasts and menstrual cycles, and fuck... it's hard enough for ME to deal with it. I wish I could have someone take it away. Well, not my breasts, but... yeah.

This has nothing to do with eugenics or trying to "breed" anything better. They wanted to make their daughter's life more bearable and enjoyable for her - looking forward.

Would the outrage be here for someone who had cleft palate and whose parents opted to have surgery to repair it?

I know some folks insist on "things are perfect the way God made them," but I think that's horseshit. Otherwise, the world wouldn't be full of child-molesters and sexual predators who get girls/women like Ashley X pregnant.

Bah.... I'm going home!

[Amaurote]

I have to honestly say that your response confuses me. I 'm not sure what your opinion is.

See below.


In a decent world this would not happen. But we don't live in a decent world.

Since we share the same premise, I fail to see why you draw the opposite conclusion.

[warza bidul]

A person I know suffered a brainstroke and was paralysed from a few months until her death many years later. She could not move or do anything herself.

What kind of life does the child have, and how bad is it for the parents. Should the child be allowed to die or forced to live? Will the parents suffer from the experience?

The parents are bastards for maiming their child. If you want a living child then have the decency to let them mature naturally.

The doctors are also idiots for agreeing to carry out this procedure.

[dynamitt]

I find it bit amusing that all the guys who have responded to this tread are totally against what the parents have done and the women are more in understanding of the what the parents have done...

Oki, kill me now :p

[JakeD]

I just don't understand that outrage against this. Why are you outraged? Do you think her enjoyment of life was *diminished* by any of these actions, or is the outrage simply because they altered their daughter physically?

If you break it all down, here is what the girl's parents have done:

1) Made it so she never has to worry about pain which she wouldn't understand - menstrual cramps, discomfort due to (probably large) adult-size breasts which she will never have a need for
2) Made it so she can more easily be treated like the 3-month-old whose mentality she possesses - i.e. at her size, you're still able to hold her and cuddle her in your lap. Were she an adult, she wouldn't get the physical attention she required because it would be physically impossible.

In my mind, those two reasons are enough to show that what they've done is made her life easier. I have large-ish breasts and menstrual cycles, and fuck... it's hard enough for ME to deal with it. I wish I could have someone take it away. Well, not my breasts, but... yeah.

This has nothing to do with eugenics or trying to "breed" anything better. They wanted to make their daughter's life more bearable and enjoyable for her - looking forward.

Would the outrage be here for someone who had cleft palate and whose parents opted to have surgery to repair it?

I know some folks insist on "things are perfect the way God made them," but I think that's horseshit. Otherwise, the world wouldn't be full of child-molesters and sexual predators who get girls/women like Ashley X pregnant.

Bah.... I'm going home!

That's the problem, is that we don't know what this kid can or can't feel. We don't know if she's enjoying life. But the outrage IS because they altered her for their convenience.

I agree that the accusations of eugenics and "breeding something better" are a bit extreme, but that doesn't take away from the fact that they put an unsuspecting child under a rigorous set of medical procedures just for convenience.

Also, a cleft palate isn't even in the same ballpark, as that's often more cosmetic/maxillofacial surgery on an otherwise fully functional, normal child. That's not even remotely close to fucking with a kid's natural development (even though it was speedy, it's still natural) to make it easier for the parents to care for her.

As for the sexual predator thing, the kid can't even get up and move around, probably doesn't get out of the house, so is someone going to break in and rape her?

[Bones]

Since we share the same premise, I fail to see why you draw the opposite conclusion.

Because I just think it's wrong. It bothers me in a way I can not really put into words.

[Amaurote]

I find it bit amusing that all the guys who have responded to this tread are totally against what the parents have done and the women are more in understanding of the what the parents have done...

That isn't true at all.

[Mr. Bojangles]

Here's my issue. You want convenient? How about smothering the poor kid with a pillow. Where does ANYONE get off supposing that this "rigorous set of invasive medical procedures" was anything but decidedly inconvenient? If the parents of this poor kid want the child to be small enough to hold for the next couple of decades, then who are ANY of us to gainsay that? I've never taken care of developmentally impaired people, so I can honestly say tthat I don't have a fuckin' clue what the parents of Ashley X were thinking.

But I doubt it had a goddamn thing to do with "convenient".

[Bassmama]

When I worked in a hospital, a 25ish year old woman was admitted & I had to care for her during the 8 hour shift I worked. Her mind was equal to a 3 month old.

She had the body of a 5'2" woman, but still laid there all day like a baby- with her legs up like a newborn. The only feedback I ever got from her was drooling & some gutteral sounds. She couldn't talk, walk, crawl, laugh, grab anything purposely... and she was being cared for in a Lexington house. (Housing for mentally & physically disabled people.) She also had her menses.

She had NO family caring for her- she was taken care of in a state run facility. Here she is with a full grown woman's body- you think some low paid lowlife wouldn't take advantage of that if given the chance? It's been done before- more than once.

And having to take care of a grown woman that can't do ANYTHING for herself as you're reaching middle-to-old age would be close to if not impossible for the vast majority of people.

Here are parents that love their child so much that they WANT to care for & keep their drastically disabled child with them as long as they live & the absolutely BEST way they can do it is by doing what they did, & people are finding fault with them? I don't- I applaud what they're doing. Maybe it's because I've had experience caring for disabled people of various mental & physical abilities that I can understand it.

I'm with Enty on this one. Maybe you people that are so horrified about the idea of this should get a job caring for severely disabled people for a while & see if you could do this 24/7.

I agree that the knee jerk reaction when I first read the piece was "How COULD they?!" but ALL contributing factors need to be considered. And in the end, only the people that will be caring for that person should be making the decision, IMHO.

[JakeD]

When I worked in a hospital, a 25ish year old woman was admitted & I had to care for her during the 8 hour shift I worked. Her mind was equal to a 3 month old.

She had the body of a 5'2" woman, but still laid there all day like a baby- with her legs up like a newborn. The only feedback I ever got from her was drooling & some gutteral sounds. She couldn't talk, walk, crawl, laugh, grab anything purposely... and she was being cared for in a Lexington house. (Housing for mentally & physically disabled people.) She also had her menses.

She had NO family caring for her- she was taken care of in a state run facility. Here she is with a full grown woman's body- you think some low paid lowlife wouldn't take advantage of that if given the chance? It's been done before- more than once.

And having to take care of a grown woman that can't do ANYTHING for herself as you're reaching middle-to-old age would be close to if not impossible for the vast majority of people.

But she's not in a state-run facility, and she's not being taken care of by anyone other than the family, as far as I could divine from the article, so that's really not applicable in this situation. Maybe 20 or 30 years down the road, but let's don't get ahead of ourselves and start worrying about kiddie-fucking male nurses or nursing-home rapists just yet.


Here are parents that love their child so much that they WANT to care for & keep their drastically disabled child with them as long as they live & the absolutely BEST way they can do it is by doing what they did, & people are finding fault with them? I don't- I applaud what they're doing. Maybe it's because I've had experience caring for disabled people of various mental & physical abilities that I can understand it.

People are finding fault with them because they willfully stunted their child's growth to make it more convenient for them. This isn't even an issue of them taking care of a grown woman, and this procedure could have dangerous consequences for her as she ages. Her organs may grow too large for her body and lead to complications. There's all kinds of things that could happen that are more viable than the possibility of some freak with a hard-on for invalids breaking down the door and fucking her.


I'm with Enty on this one. Maybe you people that are so horrified about the idea of this should get a job caring for severely disabled people for a while & see if you could do this 24/7.

I've taken care of a grandmother that could barely get around without the aid of a wheelchair, a great-grandmother that was completely blind, had osteoporosis, and could barely get around, and my granddad's great-grandmother who was completely blind and had Alzheimer's. I didn't get paid for it, but I still took care of them. Not once did I think, "Y'know, Grandma, it might just be easier for me if we hacked off your body below the torso and hooked you up to a remote-control wheelchair, because I'm really getting tired of having to lift you and push you around."

[Diva]

If you go to their personal website (http://ashleytreatment.spaces.live.com/blog/) they shed more light on their reasons. They talk about it being easier to move her around, fit into a children's stroller and child's bathtub. Convenience on their part in my eyes. Personally I am leaning towards NOT agreeing with them. I have cared for bed ridden people both professionally and personally.
Making them smaller is easier for the person caring.
Removing the breasts is easier for the person caring. How many people say they'd rather lop off their breasts then risk getting breast cancer? Mind you, this is a child. So they're thinking of some possibility that is years down the line.
Hysterectomy so she doesn't have cramps? Come on...In the end they say she's a blessing and not a burden. They've taken their child and turned her into a semi anatomically correct doll. They've subjected her to treatments and surgeries that are painful no matter how you look at it. Any person here who has had surgery should know that it's a hard recovery. Most importantly they've made their daughter into a lab rat not for a cure but to just keep her pocket sized.

Do I think that keeping her 'bite size' is going to make it easier for her? Yes and no. But morally I can't see stunting a child's growth, removing her breasts, uterus and subjecting her to treatments they can only theorize on the outcome. Plus the statement "“If the concern has something to do with the girl’s dignity being violated, then I have to protest by arguing that the girl lacks the cognitive capacity to experience any sense of indignity" is beyond barbaric. What happened to treating people with dignity? They say that they would find a way to take care of her no matter what she ended up being. My bet is that she'd be in a home faster than 'Spot went to your distant uncle's farm' after growing too big to take care of.

Lastly, her surgeries are based on what *may* happen to her. Not everyone gets cancer. Nor do they get cramps (I have plenty of friends who don't). Nor do they get breast cancer, etc... I can't condone surgery for *just in case* scenarios.

[JakeD]

The objection that this treatment interferes with nature is one of the most ridiculous objections of all; medicine is all about interfering with nature. Why not let cancer spread and nature takes its course. Why give antibiotics for infections? Even an act as basic as cutting hair or trimming nails is interfering with nature.

This line of reasoning is total bullshit. Cancer and infections are dangerous and potentially malignant in many cases, and cutting hair and trimming nails is a social norm. You don't have to do either if you don't want to.

One thing that their personal website does outline that was sort of in the background is that the parents are recommending that this sort of treatment become more widespread. While people are saying that the parents don't have to prove themselves, this changes everything. If they're recommending this as a viable medical procedure that should be practiced more widely, they absolutely have everything to prove, as they're arguing for a medical solution for caring for disabled people.


They've subjected her to treatments and surgeries that are painful no matter how you look at it.

That's another good point. Surgical pain is perfectly fine and dandy, but menstrual pain is something that absolutely cannot be allowed?

[thestarsfall]

Damn me to be cursed with the ability to see and agree with both sides of the argument/issue at hand.

At first I was totally and completely with Bass and Enty on this one...If they really wanted convenience then they could just put her in a home somewhere, or move to a country that supports euthanasia.

But then some of Diva's and other ppl arguments makes sense as well.

Gah...

I am apparently on the fence. Meh...

One thing I am thinking....they had these surgeries to make it more convenient to love her. Making it easier for other ppl to accept her as well. In our world children with disabilities and deformities and whatever are seen as needing love and care and everything, no matter if you are related or not. But once the disabled people become adults they are often pushed off to the side. And unless there is very willing friends or family to take care of them they will end up in hospitals and nursing homes.

[Bones]

I'm with Enty on this one. Maybe you people that are so horrified about the idea of this should get a job caring for severely disabled people for a while & see if you could do this 24/7.Refer to my comments about Lee. I have had to get up in the morning to get him on the school bus, then go back down to his house to get him off the bus and take care of him till his Mother came home from work. And many times just kept taking care of him anyway cause she was to tired. It might not be 24/7. But I have helped with his care for 18 years now. My only complaint is grabbing my ponytail and dragging me to the ground is not funny!!! He seems to think so.
And he's not disabled. He's different.

[trekbugging]

i am on the fence also

but sent the link to my sister who is and has been a physicial therapist for more than 15 years and is now working towards her doctorate in child care--for last 5 years has work almost exclusivily with downssyndrome kids-plus she has 2 kids of herself (normal--well as normal as nephews can be)--her response was
I just heard about this on the news... I'd have to fully read what the lady wrote, but first impression is that it's probably a good idea. I had a child from 4 months to 4 years that I followed and she was over 50 pounds when she died at 4 yrs. It was hard to move her and to position her. I can't imagine how she would have been bathed, dressed or repositioned for comfort if she grew any larger. The family would have had to get those big hoyer lifts just to get her out of bed. I can totally understand why this family elected to do all those procedures, and understand why it would confound people who have no idea how hard it is to care for someone who is so totally dependent on others for their care.
Anyways, just my thoughts

so she put it in a little different light--and i am on the fence on this

but the great thing about this website is WE CAN DISAGREE and we aren't calling each other names because you don't agree with me

except bones --- we all know he's a pervert--hahahahaha
oh wait so am i--- oh well

[entipy]

but the great thing about this website is WE CAN DISAGREE and we aren't calling each other names because you don't agree with me

At least not to their faces. :p

[NurseNancy]

I don't normally like to get into these debates...but I have to say as a medical professional I really do understand most of what these parents did. It is sooo hard to tend to adults with these problems...for the reasons that Trekbugging's sister gave. And then again, I have personally seen people in this condition who were sexually taken advantage of and I know one girl personally who ended up pregnant. You would think...people would not take advantage of someone like that..but unfortunately, they do. I see this kid every day...and her mother can do nothing for her...the poor grandmother has to raise her and she's so old I don't see how she's doing it. It's hard enough that she has the daughter to take care of...now a grandchild too (who is not challenged in any way). The poor woman's nerves are shot. I also know someone in a similar situation...and they ended up having her get a hysterectomy.

But apart from the sexual reasons...the tending of someone like that is very hard...and the larger they are...the harder it is. It's hard enough to take care of someone like that in a facility...even harder at home...I guess I would have to agree with the parents on this one.

[Bones]

except bones --- we all know he's a pervert--hahahahaha
oh wait so am i--- oh well

Am not.

/me humps Treks leg.

[trekbugging]

/me pushes bones onto nurses leg

oh wait i mean i hump nurses leg

oh i'm confunsed-wiat no i'm not

[NurseNancy]

* trekbugging pushes bones onto nurses leg

oh wait i mean i hump nurses leg

oh i'm confunsed-wiat no i'm not

Okay, so who the hell is humping my leg????????????????:confused: :p

[trekbugging]

you have 2 legs so two humpers--hahahahahahahahahah:p : :3some:

[Bones]

Is this really the thread where we need to get perverted? Have we become this depraved?

[Sean]

/me bones bones

[Bones]

/me humps Seans leg. Runs when thestarsfall hoses him down.

[Bassmama]

/me thinks all this humping & boning has changed this thread to the "hump & bone" thread

[Bones]

Trek started it.

/me glares at Trek.

[thestarsfall]

Wow, that went downhill rather quickly...

[NurseNancy]

Is this really the thread where we need to get perverted? Have we become this depraved?

You're right! Must we turn EVERY thread into a perverted orgy, Bones????:eek: :angel:

[trekbugging]

jsut a mood lightener-- kind of like running into a VERY quiet room and screaming loudly--- and scaring the pants off of the people in there--hmmm gives me idea for a different thread--

[Bones]

jsut a mood lightener-- kind of like running into a VERY quiet room and screaming loudly--- and scaring the pants off of the people in there--hmmm gives me idea for a different thread--

Last time I did that my Grams thwacked me in the head.

[warza bidul]

what about running into a quiet room where everyone is humping everyone else's leg fully clothed

but with silk instead

[trekbugging]

what about running into a quiet room where everyone is humping everyone else's leg fully clothed

but with silk instead

swish-- shish shish

mental image and sound of alot of silk pj's rubbing each other--:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lolrotf: :lolrotf: :lolrotf:

[NurseNancy]

swish-- shish shish

mental image and sound of alot of silk pj's rubbing each other--:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lolrotf: :lolrotf: :lolrotf:

:lolrotf: :lolrotf:

We could forego the silk and just run around humping everyone's legs totally naked:D :p

[Bones]

what about running into a quiet room where everyone is humping everyone else's leg fully clothed

but with silk instead


I'm there dude.

[JakeD]

Hospital: "Oh gee, maybe we shouldn't have done that." (http://www.wnbc.com/health/13284074/detail.html)

[Bones]

I'm still of the opinion it was wrong.

[trekbugging]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/05/08/ashley.ruling/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
this has a pic of girl--but pretty much same story Jake put up-- i still am on fence--even after reading all i could-- hopefully will never be put in that situation -- but can understand why parents did it

[equeleni]

I think it was wrong. I will not get into a debate about it.. I just think it was wrong.